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Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:43 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.

M60A3





This vehicle is a M60A1.
No thermal shield on the end of the exhaust pipe for the personnel heater.
No wind sensor mast at the left rear of the turret. Possible it is not there, but many of the display 'A3's still have them.
No thermal blankets on the main gun barrel. Again it's possible they have been removed.
Ball mounts for the searchlight over the main gun are still there. That tells me this vehicle was not upgraded or build with a thermal FCS.
Check the right (from the driver's point of view) range finder cover. The 'A3's have a small hatch that closes the openning to guard the lazer ranger finder on the 'A3's. This vehicle does not have that small cover.
If I remember Joe_D's briffing, I think the gunner's dog house is the older 'A1' type vis the newer 'A3' types.

I think it's an newer model 'A1'.
It does have chin fillets and the heavier side ways tie down points on the hull sides.
Possible ex-NG vehicle due to a full set of the aluminum road wheels.
That my call off the top of my head,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.
M4A3(75) Sherman



Did anyone else notice there are two different 75mm Shermans in this photo collection?
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:28 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.
What museum would be complete without an M114 Lingle?


Looks good. The right track is a bit lose. The surf board arm is not fully extended and locked down. Surf board is the original metal type which tended to fold back onto the hull when the vehicle was driven into water at high speed. Later version was made of plywood.
- Neil_Baumgardner


Missing the left rear mud flap, other wise, looks good on the out side.

Neil, thanks to your friend Kevin for the Lingle photos. I am hoping that when the 1st AD moves here, they will bring a Lingle with them!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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bsmart
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Posts: 2522
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:26 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.

M60A3





This vehicle is a M60A1.
No thermal shield on the end of the exhaust pipe for the personnel heater.
No wind sensor mast at the left rear of the turret. Possible it is not there, but many of the display 'A3's still have them.
No thermal blankets on the main gun barrel. Again it's possible they have been removed.
Ball mounts for the searchlight over the main gun are still there. That tells me this vehicle was not upgraded or build with a thermal FCS.
Check the right (from the driver's point of view) range finder cover. The 'A3's have a small hatch that closes the openning to guard the lazer ranger finder on the 'A3's. This vehicle does not have that small cover.
If I remember Joe_D's briffing, I think the gunner's dog house is the older 'A1' type vis the newer 'A3' types.

I think it's an newer model 'A1'.
It does have chin fillets and the heavier side ways tie down points on the hull sides.
Possible ex-NG vehicle due to a full set of the aluminum road wheels.
That my call off the top of my head,
Sgt, Scouts Out!


I'm not sure I agree that it has the heavier chin fillets. I'm going to have to dig out JoeDs reference photos. Looking at the front view I thought that the heavier fillet had a less distinct line where the fillet met with the turret ring (because it had been filled in and smoothed out)

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Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:50 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi Bob! Hi Folks!
- bsmart
- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!
- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.
M60A3


It does have chin fillets and the heavier side ways tie down points on the hull sides.
Sgt, Scouts Out!


I'm not sure I agree that it has the heavier chin fillets. I'm going to have to dig out JoeDs reference photos. Looking at the front view I thought that the heavier fillet had a less distinct line where the fillet met with the turret ring (because it had been filled in and smoothed out)


Bob, look at the right side of the turret (camera point of view). Notice how the turret below the angle is vertical. If the vehicle didn't have the fillets, that angle would cut back under the outer edge of the turret. When looking at the left side, it doesn't look like the fillet is there, but I think that is an opital destortion due to the angle of view. We are seeing some of the angle on the under side of the turret that is passed the vertical side area of the fillet. Without the fillets, the base of the turret almost matchs the outer lip of the hull turret race.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:25 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner
Courtesy of my friend Kevin who just happens to be in Oklahoma City.
M4A3(75) Sherman



Did anyone else notice there are two different 75mm Shermans in this photo collection?
Sgt, Scouts Out!


Actually I hadnt, thanks for pointing that out - both M4A3s?

Neil
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:34 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Actually I hadnt, thanks for pointing that out - both M4A3s?
Neil


Sorry, I can not see enough of the engine desks to tell for sure.
The best I can say is both of them are NOT A1s, A4, or A6s which doesn't help a lot. I think one of them might be, but the one with the pistol port in the turret side, don't know.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Are we all seeing 3 tanks here?? Thats what I saw when I was there






Are thes two pictures of the same tank??
this one


and this one?
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Yes, I believe so.

Neil
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

me too, very confusing. I only saw 3
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Roy_A_Lingle
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Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:09 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi AJ2! Hi Folks!

- armyjunk2
me too, very confusing. I only saw 3


There are at least three Sherman tanks, possible four. Shocked
One M4A1(cast rounded hull) 76 mm with HVSS.
Two M4A? (flat welded plate hull) 75 mm with VVSS. Which is what I was asking about.

There MIGHT be three M4A? 75mm Shermans.
The one photo looking at the Right side/front (driver's point of veiw) of a 75mm doesn't show enough details for me to match it with the other views from the left side and left rear. It maybe possible that is the other side of the one with the pistol port. There is something behind this vehicle that MIGHT be the red brick building that can be seen in the left side view of the pistol port vehicle.
Looking at the left side and left rear (driver's point of view), there are clearly two 75mm Shermans due to one having a pistol port on the left side of the turret and the other one not having a pistol port.

Hope this clears up my confuzing question post.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:54 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

I believe we have 3 Shermans total

The M4A1 is easy.

The other two I identify by some somewhat insignificant quirks.

Both have something 'stuck' on the differential above the left side tow lug. Looking very closely you can see the 'thing' is different on the two vehicles. One tank has a small rectangle in the center of the left side hull applique armor (almost makes it look like a vision port in a welded up M3 side door). This vehicle also appears to have headlights inside the brush guards on the front hull. It also appears that the vehicle with these oddities also only as a stub mounting for the .50 cal MG while the other tank in question has a more complete MG mount (but I'm not as confident of that as I am the hull features. Also the monument 'Tombstone' is on opposite sides of the two tanks

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)


Last edited by bsmart on Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:59 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

Hi everyone.
After sitting here for about 20 minutes waiting for the pictures to download (I am connected at 19.2 Kbps) I believe there are only 3 Shermans Laughing . Last couple of days I kept getting knocked off.
The last two pictures look like the same tank just taken at different angles. The .50 cal mount is at the same angle and if you look between the road wheels on the third picture you can see the same plaque "Tombstone" to the right of the tank as in picture four.
Now for the M60, she's a GEN 4 Hull with Late turret (Chin Armor) A1. Good eye Mark. I've been tracking this tank about 2 years now but only have seen one poor picture of her. Neil, tell your friend Kevin thanks for all the great pictures.
Roy your ID was with the missing range finder door. In fact the old Co-incidence range finder is still mounted. The other major give aways are the "Aluminum" Top loader air filters, Gunner's sight being smaller and flat on top, and the lack of a welded armored cap over the searchlight power cable receptecle. Although other than the air filters these features are found on some A3's (very Rare).
Because the tank wasn't upgraded with armored air filter housings and does not have a bilge pump installed (Note cover next to heater exhaust on hull) I'm pretty sure she's former Active Army instead of USMC. If I was to bet where she came from I'd say either Fort Riley (Had them up to late '87) or Fort Sill (Had a Company for LFX's). The Gaurd in that Tri-State area went from M60A0's to M60A3's, skipped A1's to the best of my knowledge. What is interesting is the combination of the Smoke Grenade Launchers and possible set up for the old M24 IR night sight instead of the newer VVS-2. I'd sure like to get a better top view of that driver's hatch (Hellfish :wink:).

I think I now will call about getting a high speed connection

Joe D
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

I saw three when i was there in November, so unless they have picked up a new one, I'll stick with three
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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Pictures from the 45th Infantry Division Museum in OKC

The "flat plate" Shermans are M4A3s. One can see the engine deck well enough and the rear plate on one of them. Further, the greatest percentage of 75mm Shermans on display in the US are M4A3s. The US left most of the original M4s overseas as they were obsolete. M4A2s were either sent overseas or scrapped as their engine was taken out of the Army's logistics system. The M4A3 75mm dry stowage didn't go overseas in nearly the numbers of M4s and most of them went through at least one upgrade/remanufacture cycle.

There aren't very many real M4s left in the US, either museums or collections.
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