±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 825
Total: 825
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Downloads
05: Member Screenshots
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: News
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Downloads
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Home
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Your Account
34: Downloads
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Your Account
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Home
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: CPGlang
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Downloads
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Home
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Downloads
81: Community Forums
82: Your Account
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Downloads
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: News
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: News
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: News
119: Member Screenshots
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: News
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Downloads
145: Community Forums
146: Downloads
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: Downloads
151: Community Forums
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Downloads
156: Downloads
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Downloads
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: CPGlang
168: News
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Downloads
175: Community Forums
176: Downloads
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Photo Gallery
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Member Screenshots
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Downloads
203: Community Forums
204: Downloads
205: Community Forums
206: Your Account
207: CPGlang
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: News
218: News
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: CPGlang
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Member Screenshots
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: News Archive
241: Community Forums
242: Downloads
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: CPGlang
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: News
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: News
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Your Account
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Photo Gallery
296: News
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Statistics
308: Photo Gallery
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Member Screenshots
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: News
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Downloads
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Photo Gallery
336: Photo Gallery
337: News
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: CPGlang
354: Community Forums
355: Photo Gallery
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Member Screenshots
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: News
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Home
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Member Screenshots
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Downloads
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Member Screenshots
414: Search
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Home
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Downloads
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: News
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Photo Gallery
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: News
441: Downloads
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Downloads
445: Your Account
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: Home
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Photo Gallery
455: Member Screenshots
456: Home
457: Your Account
458: Home
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: News Archive
469: CPGlang
470: Downloads
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Home
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Downloads
485: Photo Gallery
486: Home
487: Home
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Home
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Downloads
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: News
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Downloads
520: Home
521: Community Forums
522: Downloads
523: Home
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: CPGlang
527: Your Account
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: CPGlang
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Home
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Home
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Downloads
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Community Forums
557: CPGlang
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: News
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Community Forums
565: Downloads
566: Home
567: Downloads
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Statistics
574: Downloads
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Statistics
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Home
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Statistics
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Downloads
598: Photo Gallery
599: Community Forums
600: Downloads
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: CPGlang
608: Community Forums
609: Downloads
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Photo Gallery
614: Downloads
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Home
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Photo Gallery
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Your Account
625: Home
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Photo Gallery
633: Community Forums
634: Downloads
635: Community Forums
636: News
637: Your Account
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Downloads
643: Community Forums
644: CPGlang
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Downloads
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Statistics
656: Member Screenshots
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: CPGlang
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Photo Gallery
670: Photo Gallery
671: Community Forums
672: Home
673: Home
674: Home
675: Photo Gallery
676: Photo Gallery
677: Photo Gallery
678: CPGlang
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Home
682: Home
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: News
691: Community Forums
692: Downloads
693: Community Forums
694: Home
695: Community Forums
696: Photo Gallery
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Photo Gallery
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Photo Gallery
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Home
710: Home
711: Community Forums
712: Home
713: Photo Gallery
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Home
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: CPGlang
722: Photo Gallery
723: Community Forums
724: Photo Gallery
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Photo Gallery
728: Community Forums
729: News
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Member Screenshots
736: Home
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Photo Gallery
743: Community Forums
744: Home
745: Photo Gallery
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Photo Gallery
750: Community Forums
751: Photo Gallery
752: Community Forums
753: Photo Gallery
754: Community Forums
755: Home
756: Home
757: Photo Gallery
758: Downloads
759: Home
760: Home
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: Photo Gallery
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Home
774: Community Forums
775: Your Account
776: Community Forums
777: News Archive
778: Community Forums
779: Photo Gallery
780: Community Forums
781: Downloads
782: Community Forums
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Home
786: Photo Gallery
787: CPGlang
788: Community Forums
789: Downloads
790: Community Forums
791: Photo Gallery
792: Community Forums
793: Home
794: Photo Gallery
795: Community Forums
796: Community Forums
797: Community Forums
798: Downloads
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Photo Gallery
802: Community Forums
803: Downloads
804: Photo Gallery
805: Community Forums
806: Community Forums
807: Photo Gallery
808: Community Forums
809: Home
810: Community Forums
811: Community Forums
812: CPGlang
813: Community Forums
814: Photo Gallery
815: Community Forums
816: Community Forums
817: Community Forums
818: Downloads
819: Community Forums
820: Photo Gallery
821: Community Forums
822: News
823: Community Forums
824: Photo Gallery
825: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
T95 Info
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:28 am
Post subject: T95 Info

I figured I'd open a new thread for this.

Here is a couple of outakes regarding the 'basic' T95 suspension from 1958 document.







Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

The 1958 data sheet on the T95 which mentions two types of track, the T114 & T115.



Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Here is a sample of the diffeent variants of T95, beside the 'usual' ones.....













Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Hi,

Moved from the Ft. McCoy thread:

- Kurt_Laughlin
The T114 track was for "Tanks T95, T96, T110 and other vehicles having similar suspensions" according to OCM 36316 (20 SEP 56) that assigned the nomenclature. T114 track was double pin with rubber bushings, hence live. It is listed as being lighter than the T108 and T109 which were for the same vehicles. They were live tracks as well.

T108 - Replaceable rubber chevron grousers
T109 - Replaceable steel grousers
T114 - Integral rubber chevron grousers

KL


Live? Are you sure? It doesn't look 'live'...no end connectors. It looks to me like a scaled-up version of the M113 track, which I'm pretty sure is not 'live' track. I think the rubber bushing reduces the squeak and protects the pins. I could be wrong...

{Added: From Dontos first post here: "...flat-track type suspension..." = non-live track. I think I prefer "flat" to "dead" and will use it that way.}

As for Doug's question about return rollers, I'm not sure that they are indicative of track type except that the lack of them usually indicates 'flat' track. On the other hand, many WWII German and Soviet vehicles had return rollers with flat (non-live) track. It may be related to the allowable stresses on the drive sprockets and idlers? Better post war designs could handle the lateral/shear stresses of the unsupported return run of track, where previous examples could not?

I know that the US went with live track early-on, which improved track retention at high speeds. It seems that when weight became an issue (M41, M551, M113) the designers went back to flat track though.

Interesting discussion!

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:17 am
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Live is my presumption for rubber bushed track. As best I can tell the US hasn't used any "dry pin" or dead tracks since WWII. BTW, "flat track suspension" means no return rollers, regardless of the design of the track blocks itself, don't interchange flat and dead Smile Most German WWII and Soviet tracks until the 1980's were dead. Other than the Pz I through IV and the KV and IS series, all the suspensions in that period were flat.

The main reason for using live track is to reduce rolling resistance. Because the track wants to curl around the wheels alread, it takes less power to move them.

The M113 used T130 tracks, which were single pin with rubber bushings. The rubber was bonded to the hole in the track and to a steel liner with a hexagonal hole that was positioned just so. The track pins were hexagonal, so the orientation of the tracks to each other was fixed.

I suggest anyone interested in this stuff to get or read "The Technology of Tanks" by Richard Ogorkiewicz (sp?). A great two volume book. [EDIT - Good golly! I just checked on Amazon and used copies are going for $850!!!. It was "only" $105 when I got mine back in '91 or '92.]

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:54 am
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

- C_Sherman
Hi,

Live? Are you sure? It doesn't look 'live'...no end connectors. It looks to me like a scaled-up version of the M113 track, which I'm pretty sure is not 'live' track. I think the rubber bushing reduces the squeak and protects the pins. I could be wrong...


C


Re: M113 track...at least the original stuff...laid stone flat on the ground, easy to bend and of course, mount (you could pull the track on by hand once you had the road wheels on the track). I can't say about some of the later stuff, like Diehl(?) track. I have pics of later M113's with an end connector type track...that might be "live"...can't say.

Sorry to open a can of worms, but this "live/dead/flat" and "supported/unsupported" issue has been bothering me for a while (you could say, forty years or so). I'm not sure there is a definitive answer, but there must be some conventions*. Kurt?


*Only one I'm pretty sure of is that "live" track has bushings that "encourage" the track to bend "inwards" to assist it's travel around sprocket and idler's and thereby to keep the track where it's supposed to be. Beyond that, it gets real fuzzy for me in some cases.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:08 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

- Kurt_Laughlin
Live is my presumption for rubber bushed track. As best I can tell the US hasn't used any "dry pin" or dead tracks since WWII. BTW, "flat track suspension" means no return rollers, regardless of the design of the track blocks itself, don't interchange flat and dead Smile Most German WWII and Soviet tracks until the 1980's were dead. Other than the Pz I through IV and the KV and IS series, all the suspensions in that period were flat.

The main reason for using live track is to reduce rolling resistance. Because the track wants to curl around the wheels alread, it takes less power to move them.

KL


Live track is simply track that, by some mechanical means (usually a wedge bearing on machined surfaces on the track pins), incurs a tendency to curl inward when 'relaxed'. Flat track lays flat.

Design differences aside, there is no functional difference between WWII German track and the track on the M113. The rubber bushings are a refinement, not a fundamental engineering change.

Live track may reduce rolling resistance, but cannot reduce power requirements. Basic physics: TANSTAAFL. The major advantage of live track is a resistance to shedding at high speeds, because the track naturally prefers move around rather than away from an idler or sprocket. The curl helps the track to maintain contact and overcome centripetal forces that pull it away from the wheel. Live tracks generally require return rollers to avoid overstressing the track by bending it 'backwards' on the top 'return' runs. Such bending increases the risks of broken track pins, which require replacement and defeat the purposes of using the live track in the first place.

The advantages of flat tracks are in the manufacturing process and in the maintenance requirements, and thus costs. Live tracks require a certain amount of (relatively) precise machining in manufacturing, and can be more difficult and resource intensive to maintain. Flat tracks don't require the level of precision or manufacturing effort that live tracks do, and are (relatively) easier to maintain in service.

Flat tracks may or may not use return rollers, because they are able to bend 'backwards' to some extent, without problems. Modern tendencies are to use larger roadwheels and allow the track to touch or nearly touch the tops of them. (The WWII Germans tried it both ways and seemingly preferred no return rollers with their later designs.)

I'm just a dumb ol' engineer, and I didn't write no books. But this stuff I 'get'. A curious tanker that asks a lot of questions in engineering school can learn a lot,and I did!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Chuck

WOW!! That is an excellent descriptive. I think I even understand that.


I'm actually learning something new here.

"Training has taken place"
Thank you
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Well, somebody wanted nomenclature conventions and that's what they are.

Flat Track Suspension - Return run of track supported by the tops of the road wheels.

Dry Pin Track = Dead Track – Tracks with pins that float freely within the track blocks. “Dead” is also used to describe worn tracks where the bushing in “Live” tracks no longer maintains the proper angular orientation between adjacent blocks.

Rubber Bushed Track = Live Track – Tracks with pins that are fixed in relation to the track blocks. "Rubber bushings eliminate metal-to-metal contact between the pins and the links and the necessary angular movement between them is provided by torsion of the rubber, the outer surface of the bushings being fixed to the links and the inner surface to the pins." (TOT)

I’ve attached a scan from a TM showing the M113 track block.

i75.photobucket.com/al...1track.jpg

As you can see, the pin and the bushing hole are both hexagonal. A hexagonal pin in a hexagonal bushing hole means the pin cannot rotate relative to the bushing. If the theory is that the T130 tracks are “dry pin” types, then the obvious question is, why go to the added expense? If the theory is that the T130 tracks are “dry pin” types, then the bushing must be free to spin within the track block. If that is true, why was it necessary to place the adjacent blocks at a 20-degree angle when reconnecting track?

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Kurt

Pulling something from my 'endless bag of tricks', here is a couple of photos of a track block from an M113, that I just happen to have available here at home......





It is amazing the assortment of items one collects over the years.

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Hi Folks! Sorry I am so late to the party.

Looks like Kurt needs some back up and I am here to do that.

While I don't have Dr. O's books that Kurt suggest reading, I do have Armoured Forces, A History of Armoured Forces and Their Vehicles and Design and Development of Fighting Vehicles by the good Doctor.

Who is Dr. Richard M. Ogorkiewicz?

"....is an internationally recognized expert on armour." and "....is an internationaly recognised authority on ..(AFVs)..and has lectured on the subject in Britain, ..United States, Sweden and Israel."

When it comes to the design of AFVs this was the man to go to during his time.

There are three types of track used on AFVs,
1. Band track, rubber with steel cables inside. examples US Halftracks, M50, M56, M114. Works well on smaller AFVs.

2. DEAD track block. Note this is a type of block used to make up a track.
examples: just about every Soviet tank up until they started using Live track block during the mid Cold War era. Most tracked vehicle designs started out with dead type track block and the Soviets stuck with it. The tank would be destoryed before the short life of that type of track was reached. It was a lot easier to teach Ivan how to take it apart and put it back to together. Remember most Ivan tankers came from a farm where horse powered equipment was the standard. Dead track block was just like hooking up a team of horse to a plow or wagon. It can be made faster and it cost less than live block.

3. Live track block, Note again, this is a type of block used to make up a track. Examples: Every US light and medium tank from the mid 1930s up to now. It cost more to make, needs more care, but it last a lot longer than dead track block.

To Chuck, "It doesn't look like 'live' track, no end conectors.
Sorry but end connectors have NOTHING to do with live track. Track block with end connectors is a type of live track. That T95 has a live track and the M113 has a live track.

Don't know what type of track block you are looking at, check the rear of hull where the track begains the return to the front. It the block is dead, there will a wedge block that will push the dry pin back into the dead blocks.

Sorry Doug!
If your M113 track layed flat and the end blocks did not lift up off the ground, then that track was dead or dying and needed to be replaced. For the most part very little new track was shipped to the RVN. Track was removed at the depots from vehicles that where being shipped out for rebuild and that used track was shipped to the field. It is a case of most vehicles would be damaged/destroyed before the track died. No need to waste new live track block.

Back to Chuck:
Your "I prefer 'flat' to 'dead' and will use it that way." doesn't work.
That is the same as saying I perfer Applies to Oranges and will use Applies anytime I see an Orange.

DEAD or dead track is a TYPE of track block, FLAT Track is a feature of the 'Christie' tracked suspension system. It has nothing to do with the type of block used.

A comment about 'Christie suspension'.
Dontos your are correct, the T95 has a 'MODIFIED Christie suspension'.
The M114, M551, the M107/110 hulls, the T55 and T62s all have 'MODIFIED Christie suspensions'. The T34 Family of vehicles, T54 and most of the British Crusier tanks up to the Comet have true 'Christie suspensions'.

Vehicles with a Christie or Modifed Christie don't have support rollers so the road wheels have more room to move upward.

It is sad that we lost the old site. This subject came up back in June of 2000.
Spot report! Passed my bed time, see you folks later.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks! Sorry I am so late to the party.


Sorry Doug!
If your M113 track layed flat and the end blocks did not lift up off the ground, then that track was dead or dying and needed to be replaced. For the most part very little new track was shipped to the RVN. Track was removed at the depots from vehicles that where being shipped out for rebuild and that used track was shipped to the field. It is a case of most vehicles would be damaged/destroyed before the track died. No need to waste new live track block.

Sgt, Scouts out!


No doubt. Laughing I replaced three road wheels on "Head Shoppe" and you should have seen what came off. Only one replacement was "new", the others were just "not as bad" as what was on there. Only had to retrack once and it was flat as a pancake. My pics of X-Ray's little incident in the field don't show the track due to the heaviness of the bush, but it was the same way.

Here's a shot of a Sheridan track, most likely salvage from a "beyond repair" vehicle.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:50 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

Great shot! Notice how the last track shoe near the hull is lifted off the ground. That LIVE track still has a bit of life left in it.

The Long Bin Depot would set that track aside and when needed ship some of or all of it out to a unit requesting some track. The vehicle would get shipped out of county without the tracks.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:10 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

Roy said:

Track was removed at the depots from vehicles that where being shipped out for rebuild


Flash forward 25 years to Fort Irwin and you'd have the same situation with the M551's there. Crewed them from 87-89 and we drove the crap out of them. Combine that with the fact that most parts production had been halted years ago and all we would get was war stock/ rebuild/ refurbished you'd get some pretty interesting deliveries. The only other unit that used them by then was 3-73 Armor at Fort Bragg. When a tank was coded out (warped/ cracked hull ) it was stripped. Officially we could send them off with just 4 road wheels and arms. Unofficially we would also exchange every working part we could for broken ones if the item was required for turn in. Short of a hull being cracked/ warped we would fix them up ourselves. Track and sprockets were in serious shortage for a while. Pretty bad when exchange criteria was either one of the center guides was broken on a block or the bushings were so wore out the nut on the track pin was damaged and a socket wouldn't fit on it. Right before I left they started sending us war stock track and they also started the M551/OPFOR model production at Anniston.

Point was, you could definitely tell when you had dead block track. The noise of it slapping on the hull was very obvious when doing 35-40 MPH in the Desert while you prayed it didn't snap Shocked !!! 324 (C24) did and she flipped ass over nose when what was left of the track bunched up.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: T95 Info

- Roy_A_Lingle


It is sad that we lost the old site. This subject came up back in June of 2000.

Sgt, Scouts out!


I would have missed it anyway, as I don't think I found the DG for a couple more years, maybe three.

The Wayback website might have some of that stuff archived, but then again, maybe not. The old site became untenable anyway so it's not as if we had a choice.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum