±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 748
Total: 748
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Downloads
03: Community Forums
04: Photo Gallery
05: Downloads
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Photo Gallery
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Photo Gallery
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: CPGlang
28: Downloads
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Member Screenshots
41: Photo Gallery
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Your Account
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Member Screenshots
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Member Screenshots
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: CPGlang
94: Photo Gallery
95: Home
96: Photo Gallery
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Your Account
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Member Screenshots
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: CPGlang
117: Photo Gallery
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Member Screenshots
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Community Forums
126: Member Screenshots
127: Community Forums
128: CPGlang
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: CPGlang
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Home
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: CPGlang
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Your Account
181: CPGlang
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: News
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Your Account
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Your Account
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Your Account
195: Downloads
196: Community Forums
197: Downloads
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Downloads
205: Community Forums
206: Statistics
207: Statistics
208: Photo Gallery
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Member Screenshots
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Downloads
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: CPGlang
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Home
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: CPGlang
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: CPGlang
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Home
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Downloads
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Downloads
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Photo Gallery
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Photo Gallery
309: Community Forums
310: CPGlang
311: CPGlang
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: CPGlang
317: Community Forums
318: CPGlang
319: Photo Gallery
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Home
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Home
334: Downloads
335: Community Forums
336: CPGlang
337: CPGlang
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Your Account
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Your Account
350: Community Forums
351: CPGlang
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Photo Gallery
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Your Account
363: Home
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Community Forums
368: Member Screenshots
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: News Archive
372: Community Forums
373: CPGlang
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Photo Gallery
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Member Screenshots
409: Downloads
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Photo Gallery
413: Home
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Downloads
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: News
424: Your Account
425: Statistics
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Downloads
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Photo Gallery
436: Statistics
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: CPGlang
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: CPGlang
450: Community Forums
451: CPGlang
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Downloads
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: CPGlang
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Downloads
470: Community Forums
471: Downloads
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Photo Gallery
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Member Screenshots
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: CPGlang
486: CPGlang
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Statistics
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Downloads
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: CPGlang
503: Member Screenshots
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: CPGlang
508: Member Screenshots
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Home
512: Your Account
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Downloads
522: Your Account
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Member Screenshots
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: CPGlang
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: CPGlang
542: Downloads
543: Photo Gallery
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: CPGlang
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Member Screenshots
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Downloads
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Home
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: CPGlang
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Photo Gallery
573: Statistics
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: News Archive
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Photo Gallery
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Photo Gallery
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Your Account
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: CPGlang
604: Community Forums
605: Photo Gallery
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Photo Gallery
616: CPGlang
617: Home
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Downloads
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Photo Gallery
633: Community Forums
634: Downloads
635: Home
636: Community Forums
637: Member Screenshots
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Photo Gallery
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Downloads
650: Photo Gallery
651: Photo Gallery
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Home
656: Member Screenshots
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Home
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Photo Gallery
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Member Screenshots
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: CPGlang
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Home
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Member Screenshots
683: Downloads
684: Photo Gallery
685: Member Screenshots
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Downloads
691: Your Account
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Downloads
696: Photo Gallery
697: Photo Gallery
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Your Account
703: Community Forums
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Photo Gallery
707: Home
708: Community Forums
709: Photo Gallery
710: Community Forums
711: Photo Gallery
712: Downloads
713: Your Account
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Photo Gallery
717: Home
718: Photo Gallery
719: Community Forums
720: Photo Gallery
721: Home
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Downloads
725: Downloads
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Photo Gallery
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Photo Gallery
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Photo Gallery
740: Photo Gallery
741: Community Forums
742: Home
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm
Post subject: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Question for former Army museum employees & volunteers: in your experience, is there a distinction between artifacts that are useful for soldier training and those of historical value? I dont see the distinction, particularly if you are training soldiers on the history of their branch...

But that's the baby the Senate Armed Services Committee is asking the Army to try to divide for the Armor/Ordnance/ADA collections. That being said, the intent of the language below is to enable the "historical" artifacts to be put on public display at privately-funded museums (vs the "training" artifacts that will be stored for soldier training at facilities paid for with public funds). Unfortunately, the committee is opposed to using public funds to enable public access.

Maybe (hopefully?) the Army will use this distinction to recreate what existed at Fort Knox with the Patton Museum vs Richardson Motor Pool? Who knows...

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/...srpt26.pdf

"Storage of Army artifacts
The fiscal year 2011 budget request for the Department of the Army recommended funding in Military Construction, Army, for three climate controlled storage buildings at Forts Benning, Lee, and Sill. These facilities were intended to support movement of Army macro-artifacts which were following Training and Doctrine Command schools re-locating as part of the Base Closure and Realignment 2005 process. Although the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization act for Fiscal Year 2011 (Public Law 111–383) did not authorize these projects, the committee supports the requirement to protect and preserve these historical collections.

"The committee has encouraged the Army to investigate all options for facility solutions. The committee encourages the Army to pursue the solutions that best address the priorities the Army has identified and that are the most fiscally prudent from a life cycle standpoint. Therefore, the committee directs the Army to complete its review of all options under consideration and provide a report to the committee not later than September 30, 2011, on its preferred solution set. The report shall contain, at a minimum, the following:
1. The Army’s requirements and priorities with respect to storing these artifacts;
2. Identification of various solution sets and a business case analysis for each course of action, as well as identifying any legal or regulatory barriers for the different options;
3. Estimates for the life cycle cost to the government for each option;
4. The expected cost and implications of not providing appropriate storage locations for the artifacts;
5. The Army’s recommendation for the appropriate option at each installation;
6. Any necessary legislative changes necessary to dispose of any artifacts that are not deemed to be of national historic significance; and
7. Delineation and listing of all artifacts to be stored, with special emphasis on those that are to be used for training and in what context, and those that merely have historical value as an artifact.

"With respect to the Army’s preferred option for each of the three installations, the committee notes that it does not and will not support the use of any appropriated funds being used to build or support a public museum."
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

just a note : it is good to read this, because it shows that the Senate is preoccupated by the fate of these historical artifacts.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Maybe we should set up an AFVNDG warehouse in the US to take any 'spare' vehicles that the Army doesn't want...

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Don, Bob, Garry,
Any comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

My fear is that anything supplied to a private museum will end up at a 'Museum' like the VMMV or the one in Florida that bought the collection from Hubbard OH.

Yes there are some good collections but most are the projects of individuals and subject to the vagries of life. Good intentions run up against tough budgets, wills and probate, divorce and even fraud. Maybe I am glad the Czech T35 went home instead of staying at the Ordinance Museum

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Bob,
The report seems (or at least tries) to distinguish amongst three different types of artifacts:
1) Those "not deemed to be of national historic significance" - these items could well be given away to various museums like you said.
2) Those of "national historic significance" - these items would remain Army property, but would be displayed at co-located (or nearby) museums - akin to the old Patton Museum, and to a lesser degree the Ordnance Museum.
3) Those "to be used for training" - these items would be stored at publicly-funded storage facility, for use by soldiers.

I suspect the artifacts falling under #1 will be relatively few - or at least that's what I can only hope the Army will say.

My primary curiousity/concern regards #2 & #3 - I dont see the distinction.

For those that worked & volunteered at the old museums, I am curious if you saw any practical distinction between artifacts that were used to train soldiers and "historical" artifacts displayed merely for public benefit. Seems to me soldiers are/were trained on the same historical items... But I could be wrong...

Neil

I believe the intent would still be to have a privately funded "museum" co-located (or nearby) the publicly-funded
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

My bet is when it's done and over with, all of the artifacts will be left out in the rain.

There is NO difference between #2 and #3.

The last time I was at the Ft Bliss museum, a Capt and a 1st Sgt came by. They were from a NG Air Defense unit. They were going to bring they unit by for a look at the Air Defense items still at the museum. Training is walking around a item and looking at it. Hopefully someone knows some history about it and can tell the troops. Next day, a family stops by and walks around the same item. Both the troops and the family do the same thing. They look and learn.

I somehow get the feeling that some one is thinking the troops get on or in an item and do something with it.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Neil

The only thing I can offer is the personal view point that the 'training tool' excuse has been far over-used by Army Officials.

A few soldiers going thru the museum once a month is not viable training experience but an excuse for a day away from the normal routine.

Is there any sort of training plan? (NO!)
"Task, Conditions, & Standards" (NO!)
Pre or post training testing ? (NO!)

These are (or at least were) minimum requirements for a basic training session.

Oh yeah, a bunch of young "LTs" climbing on old tanks after having their 'threat' class was always fun to babysit. They tended to do more harm to subject vehicles than any sort of beneficial training value. This is why we colocated all the Soviet/Russian vehicles together. Those were realistically the only vehicles that gave them any sort of training value.

The greatest casualty to this whole episode? The general public, veterans, and their families. And then there is the volunteers.

Volunteers spend (or have spent) Thousands of man hours to preserve or restore vehicles (utilizing private &/or personal funds) for public display & exhibitions that draw thousands of interested veterans, families, and enthusists.

The greatest success of the Ft Knox Armor Museum (ie old Patton Museum), was the ability of seeing, touching, smelling, and hearing Armor History. That is now gone for the most part and the ability of experiencing history in such a manner is now only possible through private collection museums.

a few items to consider....
What is Historical property? technically anything is....(no clear answer there!)

'Publically Funded Storage Facility" is a government built garage. A building that houses equipment. (There seems to be no interest in preservation or historical presentation.)

Sadly, the future seems to be bleak for any sort of "World Class Armor Museum" BRAC 05 destroyed an institution its history. Its too late to get any of that back, and there is no interest or funding for a future institution. THAT is the crime of this whole episode.

Of course this is merely my personal opinion.... Sorry for the ranting, I'll shut up now...

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Okay now that I vented

I can see someone deciding that anything from the late cold war is to be kept as a 'training aid' "So we can show the troops the weak spots, strengths, how to defend against it, etc". Fiberglass models would be about as useful (and a whole lot cheaper to maintain) if you just want to show the troops what a Panther or a Tiger looked like and how it compared to a Sherman or Stuart. And do Ordnance troops today even need to know that? They are only interested in recovering repairing and maintaining tanks. It took over 10 years for the Recovery Branch of the Ordnance school to move the Elefant one mile! (And eventually it was accomplished in the manner I suggested nine years ago - You embarrass the leaders - I suggested a bar bet with the senior NCOs, it was done by the Base Commander in a staff meeting to the OIC of the recovery Branch)

Another example - I used to make a point to groups about how bad the interleaved roadwheels of the Panther were for maintenance. A training aid set up with interleaved wheels that you could actually have trainees swap out the inside center wheel will make as much impression as showing them and telling them how unmaintanable they were compared to the spaced wheels of a T-34 or T-72 or a VVSS unit of a Sherman.

The older vehicles were more of professional interest to the designers and engineers who were developing the next generation by looking at how previous developers solved problems. But those folks aren't at Ft Lee or Benning so what training purpose do the vehicles serve there?

Their purpose is in building esprit, keeping the public enthused, having trophies to show off. And that isn't done by locking them away in a training area where only professionals who have already made a commitment can see them. They serve a major purpose by being down the center of the main road into the base where a 9 year old can be driven by them and think WOW and be in a place where a grandfather can bring his grand children and tell them 'that is what I did in the great war' Or where a group of Cub Scouts can walk around them and look at the gouges where rounds bounced off while a docent tells the story of a last ditch fruitless defense

A few will be deemed 'of national historic significance' (and probably for all the wrong reasons) Things like Patton's command truck, Cobra King (hopefully) Some M1 Combat car that they have a picture of Patton or Rose or someone else famous in Maybe some of the one of a kinds from the 20s and 30s. A few Shermans, Maybe some M-48s painted up like they were in Vietnam. You know as well as I do they have very few records on the vehicles at Aberdeen to be able to tell much about specific vehicles and what their 'significance is' The Tiger I (if it ever comes back) and the JagdTiger that we have photographic evidence of when and where it was captured may be some of the best documented. Will they keep the two Ordnance Museum Panthers side by side so someone can show the improvements made between early and late production? I doubt it.

Then there will be a lot put on the block for units or bases to request as monuments. Then they will start accepting requests from museums, probably based on who knows which Senator. Some will hopefully be well cared for and made available for some folks to see. Others will end up as trophies or playtoys for fatcats to show off to their friends and pat themselves on the back about how they are 'saving history'

The intellectual midgets that we have making these decisions in DC only think of what they can do to embarrass members of the other party and blame the previous administration for all the problems They want a 'feel good' sound bite that they will forget before the next reporter talks to them

I guess I just vented again

In actuality the 'training tool' excuse has always just been politically correct lip service used to justify the keeping of trophies. Everyone knew why they were being kept, they were being kept to show off to family and friends, Show the Taxpayer what their sacrifices (back in the big war) were for and be a center of pride for the organization. Well someone is now enforcing 'the letter of the law'. This is the 21st century version of the WWII and Korean war scrap drives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Interesting feedback. I suppose my hope is that the Army will say that most (if not almost all) artifacts have national historic value, but are not needed for direct soldier training per see... Setting them up for display at museums co-located at Benning, Lee and Sill.

My fear is that the collections will end up slit between the privately-funded museum and the publicly-funded storage facilities - with the latter (ironically) not accessible by the public.

BTW, I am told there is one particular well-known Senator that is firmly opposed to using public funds for public access (ie museums). The same Senator that rails against pork barrel spending on a regular basis...
Back to top
View user's profile
ShermanWasRight
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2009
Posts: 165
Location: Central Ohio/Northern Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I find the disdain for private museums here interesting, as it's quite the opposite of what I've seen among warbird enthusiasts-they love the "free market approach."

Of course, I agree with the opinion here; "preserving" history in someone's garage/hangar that the public only sees 5 days a year is next to worthless. Unfortunately I don't really know that I can offer any real solutions to the problem-it's hard even for me as someone who loves history to think that these vehicles could be used for training modern soldiers in any real fashion.

^^^^the storage facilites being off limits for "security reasons," of course, like the numerous gateguards at airbases across the country Rolling Eyes . The freaking Iranian planespotters have better access to their air force than I do, based on what I see on airliners.net. If I asked the USAF for permission to take pictures of their birds at, say, Rickenbacker, the chances are good they'd tell me about all the security/OPSEC risks before they then said no.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Keep in mind that you can go to an airshow once (or a few times) a year to see privately restored warbirds, and you can also go almost any day a year to an aviation museum.

That balance has been upset for the AFV world in the US. You can still go to the open houses to see privately restored vehicles, but the two largest AFV museum collections are now in storage.

It would be akin to having the Air & Space Museum and USAF Museum collections in storage at the same time due to impending - and as yet uncertain and unfunded - moves.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

And keep in mind that while the country groans under crushing debt and the DoD creaks under indecipherable accounting practices, we're "saving money" by moving an entire branch (or two) of the army at considerable expense, yet "closing" nothing under BRAC in the move. To say nothing of leaving behind an essentially empty and amortized museum that was well suited to it's task while it's key displays are left to rot out of public view for who-knows-how long?

A new museum (if, in fact, one is ever started, let alone completed) will cost many millions. I predict we will not see such a facility for at least ten years...and I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

I got to quit commenting, this is getting my elevated blood pressure even higher !! (Wheres my B.P. pills !!)

Oh well, such is life
Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Dontos
....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

Don


The ultimate irony will be when they starting sending people TDY from Benning to Knox to conduct training on facilities that Benning doesn't have.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum