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Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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T26E4
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:21 pm
Post subject: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Howdy everyone. I posted this thread over on Missing-Lynx to try to explain how the damage was sustained on these two Soviet Lend Lease M4A2s. Any thoughts?

www.network54.com/Foru...mor-+M4A2s
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

I'm stumped! Can't even guess! Neutral


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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

WE have discussed this before. Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.

Cool

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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I'd hate to see the hold of the Liberty ship after 35-odd tons of Sherman cannonballed around a few times.

In the late 1980's I worked in a Canadian Forces office that had technical manuals for all sorts of things. One was how to load ships. I was surprised to see diagrams of conventional through-deck loading techniques of what sure looked like a Liberty Ship. The CF had not had much experience loading ships in serving memory; things sure changed with the Balkans rotations.

Later I met a man I knew as a British exchange officer who resigned and came straight into the CF at the same rank and approximate seniority. He explained that specialists who had a skill not held by a Canadian could do what he'd done. His was loading ships.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.
Cool


I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.

I have no idea what cause that, but I for one, have trouble buying it was caused by hitting the side of a cargo ship during a storm.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I have to agree with Roy on this one. Most Liberty ships were built to withstand pressure / contact from the outside, not the inside. I can believe the ship would sustain damage but to dent a tank, seems very unlikely and unbelievable. I would love to see this tank in person. Looking at the road wheels, it looks "pieced" together at best.
This VVSS Sherman seems to have the 75mm gun, no pistol port, and early small "weep" (drain) holes at the rear of the turret splash guard. Having looked at the pictures on the site you list, I can tell it's a Chrysler build by the front "half round fill weld piece" over the diff's.
My guess is much of this tank is "cobbeled: together with various parts and steel plating. There are no vents over the engine compartment, and there is a hollow opening in the rear of each upper rear deck area, one of which appears ripped open, (see additional photo's). I'd like to know the serial number, (I'm sure Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco would like to know as well.

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Roy_A_Lingle

I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.


It was the welded versions using the North Atlantic run to Murmansk that had the problem according to my tame ship guy Gibbo... if a crack started on a welded version there was nothing to stop it. The riveted versions were okay in the cold that far north (cracks stopped at the edge of a plate) so they were mainly used on that run... The technical expression for 'things inside the hull' I was looking for was 'frames' apparently...

There is an image floating around of a Sherman being unloaded in Murmansk with similar dents... I'll get Gibbo to see if he can find it as he told me about it.

I'm almost sure we had another image of similar damage caused to a Sherman on the old board... It was parked under a tree IIRC?

Cool

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:01 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Lent it to the Mrs.?

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:48 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I remember the thread on the old board also. If I remember correctly we had pictures of more than one with similar damage. I can think of some other scenarios during shipment that could cause such damage.

An improperly secured tank hitting other heavy cargo (Such as large steel plates being shipped) or the other cargo shifting and hitting a properly secured tank (anything very heavy with sharp edges) A railroad derailment which sent the tank down an embankment into large boulders seems a possibility.

Of course the damage could have occured later in the tanks life such as being pushed out of the way after being damaged and having other equipment pushed into it but I vaguely remember pictures of tanks being unloaded with similar damage at a port

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:03 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Sabot
Lent it to the Mrs.?


LOL

Cool

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piney
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

just thinking out loud here but the dents do seem very regular, I'm wondering if it might have been off loaded with some sort of a claw device rather then cables? sort of like a crane vending machine but waay bigger.

Jeff Lewis
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Claymore
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Guys, I think Ive figured it out. This sherman looks like it's been restored from a wreck. Could it be that the side armour was missing/damaged and has been replaced with mild steel or aluminium cut to shape and welded in place. It would be very easy to damage or dent. The texture of the surface does not look like any rolled armour plate i've ever seen, but it does look like a sheet of aluminium.
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T26E4
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:23 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Claymore: If you note, I've cited TWO separate tanks with the same indentations. Over on ML, the "replaced side walls" theory has been bandied about as well. However, I tend to doubt it because if you look carefully at the dented walls' weld seams, they look intact and there's no indication of a replacement milder steel sidewall.

Also I've seen very smooth hull walls. Look at this post:

www.network54.com/Foru...179785806/

See the M4A3? Smooth too.
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:15 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Where's Hanno? He's got to have a theory!

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:42 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Here is the one under the tree...


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