±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 579
Total: 579
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Downloads
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Statistics
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Member Screenshots
22: Home
23: News
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Photo Gallery
40: Downloads
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: CPGlang
66: Photo Gallery
67: Member Screenshots
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Downloads
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Downloads
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: CPGlang
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Downloads
119: Community Forums
120: Member Screenshots
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Photo Gallery
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Statistics
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Downloads
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Downloads
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Downloads
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Downloads
179: Community Forums
180: Statistics
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Downloads
184: Home
185: Downloads
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Member Screenshots
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: CPGlang
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Downloads
213: Home
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: CPGlang
224: Your Account
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Downloads
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: News
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Your Account
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Statistics
252: Community Forums
253: Member Screenshots
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Downloads
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Photo Gallery
275: Contact
276: Member Screenshots
277: Photo Gallery
278: Photo Gallery
279: Home
280: Home
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Downloads
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Downloads
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Downloads
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: News
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Home
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Community Forums
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Home
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Downloads
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Photo Gallery
356: Photo Gallery
357: Photo Gallery
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Your Account
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Your Account
367: Photo Gallery
368: Photo Gallery
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Downloads
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Member Screenshots
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Downloads
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: CPGlang
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Photo Gallery
405: Photo Gallery
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Home
409: Downloads
410: Downloads
411: Downloads
412: Downloads
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Your Account
425: Photo Gallery
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Member Screenshots
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Member Screenshots
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Home
445: Photo Gallery
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Your Account
452: Community Forums
453: Member Screenshots
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Your Account
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Downloads
466: CPGlang
467: Home
468: Photo Gallery
469: Photo Gallery
470: Downloads
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Your Account
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Photo Gallery
496: Community Forums
497: Downloads
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Downloads
511: Photo Gallery
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: CPGlang
523: Community Forums
524: Downloads
525: Home
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Photo Gallery
532: Member Screenshots
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: News Archive
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Photo Gallery
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Home
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Downloads
562: Community Forums
563: Your Account
564: Home
565: News Archive
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Your Account
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: CPGlang
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Groups
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:55 am
Post subject: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

www.canada.com/ottawac...3c&k=94676

Today's Citizen has an extensive story about the Army suddenly wanting to keep the REMAINING Leopard tanks, in preference to the MGS and MMEV.

I haven't followed this particular issue very closely; Canada doesn't deploy its tanks without a whole huge preamble and then hardly uses them. Instead, their value is in maintaining a particular skillset for combined arms teams.

The story goes that the Chief of the Defence Staff (an ex 8CH tanker) and the Minister of Defence (an other ex 8CH tanker) have seen a new mission for heavy armour. The LAV III with a 105 gun has fallen out of favour, and the all swinging all singing LAV III anti-air missile and ground fire turret is even less exciting. The jobs for the locals arguments are there, and the dissenters from the military press are named.

The part of the story that got my attention was that half of the Leopards had been destroyed as hard targets, designated as monuments or SOLD to US companies as forest fire fighting chassis'. Anyone care to jump in?
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

nt


Last edited by Dubliner on Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
LavTech
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

This was just released on Canada.com. Looks like there may be a possibility afterall.

ARMY DOES ABOUT-FACE ON TANK REPLACEMENTS – In an abrupt about-face, Canada’s army has put a halt to the disposal of its Leopard tanks and is now asking for permission to cancel the acquisition of two types of lighter armored vehicles that were to be bought as replacements.
The Defense Department has blown up, sold or given away a little less than half of the army’s fleet of tanks, but further disposal has been put on hold and the army requested last month the Defense Department cancel the service’s Mobile Gun System and the Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle programs.
Army officials refuse to discuss the reasons for the change of heart, but it is believed some senior officers raised concerns future war zones would require better protection than that offered by the MGS and MMEV vehicles. (Source: Canada.com)
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

From here I see it going in one of two directions.

After the 'upgrade' to MMEV and MGS vehicles is canceled someone will decide the Leopards are in too bad of shape to continue in use. They will then either

1) Accept an offer for refurbed M1 Abrahms from the U.S.

or

2) Just decommision the Leopards and not replace them with anything and 'save' the money that would have been spent.

Any one want to make a wager Smile

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

Yeah, I cant help but wonder how survivable Leo 1s are against modern RPGs either. But thats sorta the tank destroyer vs Sherman argument...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:52 am
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

The main armour on a Leo was designed to protect (notice I didn't say defeat) the Warsaw Pact's best. First the T54/55 and T62, then upgraded with the Wegmann (?) 1A5 kit against the T72. Not that the whole tank could be safe, but the essentials were adequate. We know that the latest generation Western tanks are almost impervious to common threats. All the same, I doubt an RPG of the average ACM or OMF grade would be a show stopper.

Tonight's news had significant combat footage of the 1PPCLI BG in and around PASHMUL, PANJWAYI district, KANDAHAR prov. Canadians have taken the battle hard to the Taliban, and audiences are becoming accustomed to war footage, ramp ceremonies and grieving. Not a common sight on Canadian TV.

The bad guys had sheltered in compounds and inside brick drying barns. The M203 and 25mm Chain Guns didn't penetrate the walls. Time for TOW or ERYX (God forbid), or 105mm? We'll see how badly the combined arms concept plays out against irregular and unpredictable opponents.
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

This abrupt move almost sounds like they finally got their hands on a production MGS (no more promising "Oh, we promise to fix that on the production run) and did not like the final results at all.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
The main armour on a Leo was designed to protect (notice I didn't say defeat) the Warsaw Pact's best. First the T54/55 and T62, then upgraded with the Wegmann (?) 1A5 kit against the T72. Not that the whole tank could be safe, but the essentials were adequate. We know that the latest generation Western tanks are almost impervious to common threats. All the same, I doubt an RPG of the average ACM or OMF grade would be a show stopper.


Okay, frontal arc potection against 125mm KE rounds, sure. What about side protection against RPGs? I wont bother asking about rear protection since almost everything fails there - but how up to snuff is the side protection on a C2?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

A welding torch and some bar armor can help that
(Ot since it is a German tank should we call it schurzen? :-))

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

Agreed, but to be the devil's advocate, if thats the solution against RPGs why do you need a Leo 1 then?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

Leopard 1A5 frontal protection against 125mm APFSDS? That sounds very odd, like claiming a T55 could be uparmored to protect against 120mm KE. I thought the 1A5 turret was the cast design with rextra armor and the rangefinder ears deleted. The original Canadian welded types had got swapped-out for used German turrets. The best I had heard the Leopard 1 could get was protection against the T62 115mm gun's steel dart.

But hey, I'm not exactly in-the-loop on this stuff.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

nt


Last edited by Dubliner on Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:54 am
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

But frankly, if the rationale is what is going on in Iraq today, is frontal protection against 125mm or 115mm KE tank rounds all that relevant? If fighting other tanks is your main requirement, then a tank like the Leo C2 or something even better may make sense.

I dont know if this website is totally valid, but it claims the Leo C2 glacis is a little better than the M48/M60/AMX-30 class... Again, how good is the side protection?

members.tripod.com/col...rotect.htm

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

The silence to Neil's question about side armour protection says it all. I don't think anyone on this forum can accurately respond.

The Leopard C1 was a stock 1970's production German tank of the contemporary design. The C2 is not a new tank. It is turret upgrade to the last Leo 1 standard with some year 2000-plus improvements to the hull. I remember chuckling that the Canadian government announced buying tank upgrade kits, which included turret transporters (ie. tracked chassis'). The old turrets were swapped out for German 1A5 turrets that had been upgraded then put in reserve. Rather than destroy them, the Germans sold them to Canada at a free or favourable price.

As for hard targets and ones flogged on the open market, it occured to me that in any fleet there would always be a number of hanger queens. Maybe the ones shot up and sold off, were the dogs of the fleet. They could have been high mileage tanks or had repaired damage, cracked or dented plates and otherwise not ballistically reliable. Sure the uppers were fitted with standard equipment, but these were not the "keepers".
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Leopard tanks back in the news Ottawa Citizen story

Just returned from a family road trip, which included a stop at Old Fort Henry in Kingston Ontario. The Guard performs Victorian period foot and rifle drill inside a reconstructed fortress, back from when Canada was worried about those rascally rebel Yanks.

There is a Leopard C2 at 44 14 10N, 076 27 51W at the entrance to Royal Military College. It is in new out of the box surplus condition. The glossy green paint still has that QM smell, and there is negligible rusting. My guess is it was delivered this summer. No markings or numbers whatsoever. Any decals or stenciling would be under that shiney and unauthentic paint. Perhaps it masks off the CARC methyl ethyl badstuff paint? This is the first display Leopard I have seen outside of the Lebreton Gallery at the War Museum.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum