±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 743
Total: 743
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Statistics
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Statistics
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Your Account
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Downloads
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Your Account
46: Member Screenshots
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: News Archive
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Home
56: Downloads
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Member Screenshots
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Downloads
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: News Archive
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Your Account
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Downloads
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: CPGlang
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Member Screenshots
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: CPGlang
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: News
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Home
144: Photo Gallery
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Downloads
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Downloads
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Home
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Downloads
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: CPGlang
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Your Account
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Downloads
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Member Screenshots
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: News Archive
207: Community Forums
208: CPGlang
209: Photo Gallery
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: CPGlang
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Statistics
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: News
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: CPGlang
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: News Archive
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: CPGlang
259: Photo Gallery
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Search
265: Photo Gallery
266: Photo Gallery
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Home
277: Photo Gallery
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Your Account
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Your Account
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Photo Gallery
309: Community Forums
310: Member Screenshots
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Downloads
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Home
326: Home
327: Downloads
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Photo Gallery
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Community Forums
359: Member Screenshots
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Member Screenshots
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: News Archive
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Photo Gallery
393: CPGlang
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Photo Gallery
397: Photo Gallery
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Downloads
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Home
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Downloads
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Member Screenshots
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Downloads
457: Photo Gallery
458: News Archive
459: Community Forums
460: Member Screenshots
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Photo Gallery
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: CPGlang
484: Statistics
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Your Account
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Statistics
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Member Screenshots
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Member Screenshots
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Photo Gallery
524: Photo Gallery
525: Home
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Downloads
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Member Screenshots
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Home
548: CPGlang
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Downloads
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Member Screenshots
557: Community Forums
558: Member Screenshots
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Statistics
563: CPGlang
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: Your Account
574: Photo Gallery
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Member Screenshots
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Photo Gallery
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Downloads
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Your Account
594: Your Account
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Community Forums
609: CPGlang
610: Home
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Member Screenshots
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Member Screenshots
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Downloads
621: Downloads
622: Community Forums
623: Statistics
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Photo Gallery
627: Home
628: News Archive
629: Community Forums
630: Home
631: Photo Gallery
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Home
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Your Account
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Statistics
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Photo Gallery
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Downloads
653: Community Forums
654: Home
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Photo Gallery
658: Community Forums
659: CPGlang
660: Community Forums
661: Statistics
662: Home
663: Home
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Photo Gallery
670: Home
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Home
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Downloads
682: Community Forums
683: Home
684: Community Forums
685: Home
686: Community Forums
687: Home
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Home
695: Community Forums
696: Downloads
697: Home
698: Photo Gallery
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Photo Gallery
703: Photo Gallery
704: Photo Gallery
705: Downloads
706: Photo Gallery
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Home
710: Home
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Photo Gallery
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Photo Gallery
719: Home
720: Downloads
721: Photo Gallery
722: CPGlang
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Home
726: Community Forums
727: Home
728: Community Forums
729: Photo Gallery
730: Home
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: Photo Gallery
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Home
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm
Post subject: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Question for former Army museum employees & volunteers: in your experience, is there a distinction between artifacts that are useful for soldier training and those of historical value? I dont see the distinction, particularly if you are training soldiers on the history of their branch...

But that's the baby the Senate Armed Services Committee is asking the Army to try to divide for the Armor/Ordnance/ADA collections. That being said, the intent of the language below is to enable the "historical" artifacts to be put on public display at privately-funded museums (vs the "training" artifacts that will be stored for soldier training at facilities paid for with public funds). Unfortunately, the committee is opposed to using public funds to enable public access.

Maybe (hopefully?) the Army will use this distinction to recreate what existed at Fort Knox with the Patton Museum vs Richardson Motor Pool? Who knows...

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/...srpt26.pdf

"Storage of Army artifacts
The fiscal year 2011 budget request for the Department of the Army recommended funding in Military Construction, Army, for three climate controlled storage buildings at Forts Benning, Lee, and Sill. These facilities were intended to support movement of Army macro-artifacts which were following Training and Doctrine Command schools re-locating as part of the Base Closure and Realignment 2005 process. Although the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization act for Fiscal Year 2011 (Public Law 111–383) did not authorize these projects, the committee supports the requirement to protect and preserve these historical collections.

"The committee has encouraged the Army to investigate all options for facility solutions. The committee encourages the Army to pursue the solutions that best address the priorities the Army has identified and that are the most fiscally prudent from a life cycle standpoint. Therefore, the committee directs the Army to complete its review of all options under consideration and provide a report to the committee not later than September 30, 2011, on its preferred solution set. The report shall contain, at a minimum, the following:
1. The Army’s requirements and priorities with respect to storing these artifacts;
2. Identification of various solution sets and a business case analysis for each course of action, as well as identifying any legal or regulatory barriers for the different options;
3. Estimates for the life cycle cost to the government for each option;
4. The expected cost and implications of not providing appropriate storage locations for the artifacts;
5. The Army’s recommendation for the appropriate option at each installation;
6. Any necessary legislative changes necessary to dispose of any artifacts that are not deemed to be of national historic significance; and
7. Delineation and listing of all artifacts to be stored, with special emphasis on those that are to be used for training and in what context, and those that merely have historical value as an artifact.

"With respect to the Army’s preferred option for each of the three installations, the committee notes that it does not and will not support the use of any appropriated funds being used to build or support a public museum."
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

just a note : it is good to read this, because it shows that the Senate is preoccupated by the fate of these historical artifacts.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Maybe we should set up an AFVNDG warehouse in the US to take any 'spare' vehicles that the Army doesn't want...

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Don, Bob, Garry,
Any comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

My fear is that anything supplied to a private museum will end up at a 'Museum' like the VMMV or the one in Florida that bought the collection from Hubbard OH.

Yes there are some good collections but most are the projects of individuals and subject to the vagries of life. Good intentions run up against tough budgets, wills and probate, divorce and even fraud. Maybe I am glad the Czech T35 went home instead of staying at the Ordinance Museum

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Bob,
The report seems (or at least tries) to distinguish amongst three different types of artifacts:
1) Those "not deemed to be of national historic significance" - these items could well be given away to various museums like you said.
2) Those of "national historic significance" - these items would remain Army property, but would be displayed at co-located (or nearby) museums - akin to the old Patton Museum, and to a lesser degree the Ordnance Museum.
3) Those "to be used for training" - these items would be stored at publicly-funded storage facility, for use by soldiers.

I suspect the artifacts falling under #1 will be relatively few - or at least that's what I can only hope the Army will say.

My primary curiousity/concern regards #2 & #3 - I dont see the distinction.

For those that worked & volunteered at the old museums, I am curious if you saw any practical distinction between artifacts that were used to train soldiers and "historical" artifacts displayed merely for public benefit. Seems to me soldiers are/were trained on the same historical items... But I could be wrong...

Neil

I believe the intent would still be to have a privately funded "museum" co-located (or nearby) the publicly-funded
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

My bet is when it's done and over with, all of the artifacts will be left out in the rain.

There is NO difference between #2 and #3.

The last time I was at the Ft Bliss museum, a Capt and a 1st Sgt came by. They were from a NG Air Defense unit. They were going to bring they unit by for a look at the Air Defense items still at the museum. Training is walking around a item and looking at it. Hopefully someone knows some history about it and can tell the troops. Next day, a family stops by and walks around the same item. Both the troops and the family do the same thing. They look and learn.

I somehow get the feeling that some one is thinking the troops get on or in an item and do something with it.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Neil

The only thing I can offer is the personal view point that the 'training tool' excuse has been far over-used by Army Officials.

A few soldiers going thru the museum once a month is not viable training experience but an excuse for a day away from the normal routine.

Is there any sort of training plan? (NO!)
"Task, Conditions, & Standards" (NO!)
Pre or post training testing ? (NO!)

These are (or at least were) minimum requirements for a basic training session.

Oh yeah, a bunch of young "LTs" climbing on old tanks after having their 'threat' class was always fun to babysit. They tended to do more harm to subject vehicles than any sort of beneficial training value. This is why we colocated all the Soviet/Russian vehicles together. Those were realistically the only vehicles that gave them any sort of training value.

The greatest casualty to this whole episode? The general public, veterans, and their families. And then there is the volunteers.

Volunteers spend (or have spent) Thousands of man hours to preserve or restore vehicles (utilizing private &/or personal funds) for public display & exhibitions that draw thousands of interested veterans, families, and enthusists.

The greatest success of the Ft Knox Armor Museum (ie old Patton Museum), was the ability of seeing, touching, smelling, and hearing Armor History. That is now gone for the most part and the ability of experiencing history in such a manner is now only possible through private collection museums.

a few items to consider....
What is Historical property? technically anything is....(no clear answer there!)

'Publically Funded Storage Facility" is a government built garage. A building that houses equipment. (There seems to be no interest in preservation or historical presentation.)

Sadly, the future seems to be bleak for any sort of "World Class Armor Museum" BRAC 05 destroyed an institution its history. Its too late to get any of that back, and there is no interest or funding for a future institution. THAT is the crime of this whole episode.

Of course this is merely my personal opinion.... Sorry for the ranting, I'll shut up now...

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Okay now that I vented

I can see someone deciding that anything from the late cold war is to be kept as a 'training aid' "So we can show the troops the weak spots, strengths, how to defend against it, etc". Fiberglass models would be about as useful (and a whole lot cheaper to maintain) if you just want to show the troops what a Panther or a Tiger looked like and how it compared to a Sherman or Stuart. And do Ordnance troops today even need to know that? They are only interested in recovering repairing and maintaining tanks. It took over 10 years for the Recovery Branch of the Ordnance school to move the Elefant one mile! (And eventually it was accomplished in the manner I suggested nine years ago - You embarrass the leaders - I suggested a bar bet with the senior NCOs, it was done by the Base Commander in a staff meeting to the OIC of the recovery Branch)

Another example - I used to make a point to groups about how bad the interleaved roadwheels of the Panther were for maintenance. A training aid set up with interleaved wheels that you could actually have trainees swap out the inside center wheel will make as much impression as showing them and telling them how unmaintanable they were compared to the spaced wheels of a T-34 or T-72 or a VVSS unit of a Sherman.

The older vehicles were more of professional interest to the designers and engineers who were developing the next generation by looking at how previous developers solved problems. But those folks aren't at Ft Lee or Benning so what training purpose do the vehicles serve there?

Their purpose is in building esprit, keeping the public enthused, having trophies to show off. And that isn't done by locking them away in a training area where only professionals who have already made a commitment can see them. They serve a major purpose by being down the center of the main road into the base where a 9 year old can be driven by them and think WOW and be in a place where a grandfather can bring his grand children and tell them 'that is what I did in the great war' Or where a group of Cub Scouts can walk around them and look at the gouges where rounds bounced off while a docent tells the story of a last ditch fruitless defense

A few will be deemed 'of national historic significance' (and probably for all the wrong reasons) Things like Patton's command truck, Cobra King (hopefully) Some M1 Combat car that they have a picture of Patton or Rose or someone else famous in Maybe some of the one of a kinds from the 20s and 30s. A few Shermans, Maybe some M-48s painted up like they were in Vietnam. You know as well as I do they have very few records on the vehicles at Aberdeen to be able to tell much about specific vehicles and what their 'significance is' The Tiger I (if it ever comes back) and the JagdTiger that we have photographic evidence of when and where it was captured may be some of the best documented. Will they keep the two Ordnance Museum Panthers side by side so someone can show the improvements made between early and late production? I doubt it.

Then there will be a lot put on the block for units or bases to request as monuments. Then they will start accepting requests from museums, probably based on who knows which Senator. Some will hopefully be well cared for and made available for some folks to see. Others will end up as trophies or playtoys for fatcats to show off to their friends and pat themselves on the back about how they are 'saving history'

The intellectual midgets that we have making these decisions in DC only think of what they can do to embarrass members of the other party and blame the previous administration for all the problems They want a 'feel good' sound bite that they will forget before the next reporter talks to them

I guess I just vented again

In actuality the 'training tool' excuse has always just been politically correct lip service used to justify the keeping of trophies. Everyone knew why they were being kept, they were being kept to show off to family and friends, Show the Taxpayer what their sacrifices (back in the big war) were for and be a center of pride for the organization. Well someone is now enforcing 'the letter of the law'. This is the 21st century version of the WWII and Korean war scrap drives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Interesting feedback. I suppose my hope is that the Army will say that most (if not almost all) artifacts have national historic value, but are not needed for direct soldier training per see... Setting them up for display at museums co-located at Benning, Lee and Sill.

My fear is that the collections will end up slit between the privately-funded museum and the publicly-funded storage facilities - with the latter (ironically) not accessible by the public.

BTW, I am told there is one particular well-known Senator that is firmly opposed to using public funds for public access (ie museums). The same Senator that rails against pork barrel spending on a regular basis...
Back to top
View user's profile
ShermanWasRight
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2009
Posts: 165
Location: Central Ohio/Northern Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I find the disdain for private museums here interesting, as it's quite the opposite of what I've seen among warbird enthusiasts-they love the "free market approach."

Of course, I agree with the opinion here; "preserving" history in someone's garage/hangar that the public only sees 5 days a year is next to worthless. Unfortunately I don't really know that I can offer any real solutions to the problem-it's hard even for me as someone who loves history to think that these vehicles could be used for training modern soldiers in any real fashion.

^^^^the storage facilites being off limits for "security reasons," of course, like the numerous gateguards at airbases across the country Rolling Eyes . The freaking Iranian planespotters have better access to their air force than I do, based on what I see on airliners.net. If I asked the USAF for permission to take pictures of their birds at, say, Rickenbacker, the chances are good they'd tell me about all the security/OPSEC risks before they then said no.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Keep in mind that you can go to an airshow once (or a few times) a year to see privately restored warbirds, and you can also go almost any day a year to an aviation museum.

That balance has been upset for the AFV world in the US. You can still go to the open houses to see privately restored vehicles, but the two largest AFV museum collections are now in storage.

It would be akin to having the Air & Space Museum and USAF Museum collections in storage at the same time due to impending - and as yet uncertain and unfunded - moves.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

And keep in mind that while the country groans under crushing debt and the DoD creaks under indecipherable accounting practices, we're "saving money" by moving an entire branch (or two) of the army at considerable expense, yet "closing" nothing under BRAC in the move. To say nothing of leaving behind an essentially empty and amortized museum that was well suited to it's task while it's key displays are left to rot out of public view for who-knows-how long?

A new museum (if, in fact, one is ever started, let alone completed) will cost many millions. I predict we will not see such a facility for at least ten years...and I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

I got to quit commenting, this is getting my elevated blood pressure even higher !! (Wheres my B.P. pills !!)

Oh well, such is life
Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Dontos
....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

Don


The ultimate irony will be when they starting sending people TDY from Benning to Knox to conduct training on facilities that Benning doesn't have.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum