±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 793
Total: 793
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Photo Gallery
04: CPGlang
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Photo Gallery
08: Home
09: Photo Gallery
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Statistics
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: News
37: CPGlang
38: Photo Gallery
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Downloads
43: Community Forums
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Member Screenshots
60: Community Forums
61: CPGlang
62: Photo Gallery
63: Downloads
64: Community Forums
65: Downloads
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: News Archive
89: Community Forums
90: Downloads
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Member Screenshots
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: News Archive
120: CPGlang
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: CPGlang
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Statistics
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Your Account
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Your Account
216: Community Forums
217: Your Account
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Photo Gallery
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Photo Gallery
246: Photo Gallery
247: Your Account
248: Downloads
249: Community Forums
250: Downloads
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Your Account
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Downloads
264: Photo Gallery
265: Your Account
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Downloads
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Your Account
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Statistics
290: Photo Gallery
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Community Forums
295: Photo Gallery
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Downloads
305: Home
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Downloads
320: CPGlang
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Downloads
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Photo Gallery
339: Photo Gallery
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Home
348: Photo Gallery
349: Member Screenshots
350: Home
351: Home
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: CPGlang
356: Community Forums
357: Photo Gallery
358: Downloads
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Photo Gallery
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Your Account
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: CPGlang
384: Statistics
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Downloads
391: Community Forums
392: Statistics
393: Your Account
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: News Archive
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Downloads
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Home
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Member Screenshots
425: Community Forums
426: Home
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Downloads
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Member Screenshots
438: Community Forums
439: Home
440: Photo Gallery
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: CPGlang
448: Photo Gallery
449: Community Forums
450: Your Account
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Downloads
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Downloads
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: CPGlang
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Downloads
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Your Account
492: Photo Gallery
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Home
503: Downloads
504: Home
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Member Screenshots
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Photo Gallery
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Downloads
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Downloads
542: Home
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Downloads
556: Member Screenshots
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Statistics
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Member Screenshots
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: CPGlang
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: News Archive
586: Community Forums
587: Photo Gallery
588: Member Screenshots
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Downloads
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Photo Gallery
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Photo Gallery
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Member Screenshots
627: Community Forums
628: Photo Gallery
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Your Account
640: Community Forums
641: Search
642: Home
643: Downloads
644: Community Forums
645: Your Account
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Photo Gallery
651: Home
652: Photo Gallery
653: Community Forums
654: Photo Gallery
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Photo Gallery
658: Home
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Your Account
668: Community Forums
669: Downloads
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: CPGlang
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Photo Gallery
678: CPGlang
679: Photo Gallery
680: Photo Gallery
681: Downloads
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Photo Gallery
688: Home
689: Downloads
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Downloads
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: CPGlang
712: Community Forums
713: Home
714: News
715: Community Forums
716: Home
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Your Account
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Photo Gallery
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Your Account
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Downloads
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Photo Gallery
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Photo Gallery
743: Your Account
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Home
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: Community Forums
756: Home
757: Member Screenshots
758: Community Forums
759: Community Forums
760: Home
761: Photo Gallery
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Photo Gallery
765: CPGlang
766: Community Forums
767: Home
768: Community Forums
769: Downloads
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Downloads
775: Community Forums
776: Community Forums
777: Home
778: Community Forums
779: Community Forums
780: Photo Gallery
781: Community Forums
782: Community Forums
783: Photo Gallery
784: Downloads
785: Community Forums
786: Photo Gallery
787: Community Forums
788: Community Forums
789: Community Forums
790: Search
791: Community Forums
792: Community Forums
793: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48/M60 Turret ID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject: M48/M60 Turret ID

I'm looking at photos of Israeli tanks and I'm curious how to differentiate an M48A3 (low profile cupola) turret from an M60(A0) turret if the M48A3 has a 105mm gun?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Rick_Eshleman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 26, 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Lewes, Delaware, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark,
Here's 2 views of the M60A0 turret at Annapolis. I don't have any M48A3 views, but it's a start. Rick
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail AIM Address Photo Gallery
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60A0 turret was more squared off in the back than the M48 turret.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60 never appeared without the distinctive cupola (M19?...can't recall), as far as I've ever known.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.

I’ll bet that JoeD can really nail this question, but I’ll give it a shot.

As mikek points out, the M60A0 turret does have an oddly-squarish shape at the back right-hand side, by the antenna mount. The M48-series turret is very rounded in that area. Interestingly -- at least some M60A0s also have a machine gun pintle mount at the back of the turret . . . “inside” the bustle rack. [I think that this was pointed out to me by someone on this forum a few years ago. JoeD? Gary Owsley?] Both of these features can be seen in the drawing in Hunnicutt’s Patton. You can just make out the pintle mount in Rick’s first picture, above.

I was going to say that the definitive identification feature is the location of the lifting eyes on the turret, but a quick look through Patton and a few other references shows this not to be the case. In any event, I believe that the M48-series always used a “one-two” pattern to the turret lifting eyes (one in the front, in the center of the turret glacis; two at the back, on the turret sides). Apparently, some M60A0s also used this pattern, but some M60A0s also used a “two-one” pattern (two at the front, on the upper sides of the turret [like the M60A1]; one at the back, on the center of the turret roof). The M60A0 in Rick’s two photos above have this “two-one” pattern. I do not know what the details of this difference are; perhaps it is due to a different manufacturer? Apparently the first 360 M60A0s were built at Chrysler’s Newark, Delaware plant. From vehicle 361 on, production was carried out at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Since photos of the initial production vehicles awaiting delivery show the M48-style “one-two” turret lifting eye pattern, and a photo of “late M60 production by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal” in Patton shows the other “two-one” pattern lifting eyes, I’m going to guess that the change was due to the different manufacturer.

In any case, I think that if you see turret lifting eyes on the front upper sides of an M48/M60A0-style turret, you can probably bet that it is an M60A0.

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.

Hopefully, JoeD will see this and hop in here.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.


Interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of an M60 without the cupola, although I can certainly understand why the Israelis would do away with them. It's possible that I just assumed that I was looking at an M48 in the absence of other identifying features.

Any chance of a photo?

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Israeli M48 & M60 cupolas . . . there’s a subject for a post!

Short version (and some of these details might be soft or just plain wrong, so if anyone knows better, please jump in here): before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis had replaced the M1 cupola on a lot of their M48s with the “all-round” (i.e., six-periscope) vision cupola from the Sherman. I believe that at about the time of the ’73 War they were in the process of — or planning to — replace both the M1 cupola and the Sherman cupola with the ‘new’ Urdan cupola, which was just basically a modified version of the original cupola from the M48(A0). It is possible that some M60A0s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the same cupolas mentioned above before the 1973 war, but I can’t think of any pictures of them.

After the 1973 War, most, if not all, Israeli M48-series and M60-series MBTs received the Urdan* cupola as part of the rebuild/upgrade process. The new feature of the Urdan cupola was its ability to be opened on a partial, protected mode, with the hatch cover held parallel to the turret roof, open about 4-6 inches over the cupola opening. This provided the TC with overhead cover, while still allowing direct vision.

If this link works . . . here is an Israeli M60A0 rebuilt to Mag’ach 7 standards:

www.primeportal.net/ta.../magach_7/

You can see the Urdan cupola at the TC’s position. And, if you look hard enough, you can almost recognize an M60A0 under all that added armor and equipment.




Mark



* Edit: I should point out that this is the same cupola that the U.S. later used on their late-model M48A5 (Low-Profile) upgrade.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I knew about the M48 conversions, for both the Israelis and the US tanks. I actually used the Urdan cupola on an M48A5 for a short period, and rather liked it. I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.

I guess I don't think of the Mag'ach conversions as M60s, with all the additional stuff added on the outside. I know that under all that there is an M60, but it's pretty hard to tell from a quick look. They certainly make version ID really tough!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

What got me started on this was that for some reason I was thinking that the Israeli M48A3 with a 105mm gun was also known as M48A4. A Wikipedia article says the M48A4 had the turret from an M60(A0). So what I was wondering was if you see an Israeli M48 with a 105mm gun then does it possibly have an M60(A0) turret?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark:

References aren't to hand right now (Hunnicutt, primarily, and possibly also Jim Mesko's Squadron/Signal book on M48s) . . . but if I remember correctly, the official M48A4 designation never actually got used, since the imagined surplus of turrets from the M60A0s converted to M60A2s never happened. I believe that only one such tank ever existed (and it might have been known as an M48A1E2 or something like that). I think that the Mesko book mentioned that the Israeli conversions of their M48-series to "M48A5-standard" were then unofficially referred to as M48A4s in U.S. paperwork. So, I kind of doubt that you would see an Israeli M48Ax with an M60A0 turret — at least not coming from U.S. sources. What sort of modifications and/or turret switching the Israelis carried out is sort of above and beyond . . .

Bear in mind, this is all from memory, so it could be a bit twisted. Or just wrong.

I suppose, if you see an obviously M48 hull, with a turret with the funny squared-off right rear area, or a 'two-one' pattern to the turret lifting eyes, then you've probably found an ersatz M48A4 . . . at least by the 'book-description'. I've never seen one, but then again, I've also never set out to see if I could find one, before a couple nights ago.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark


Well, cool! Now I've seen an M60 without the cupola.

(BTW, I'm not at all sure the cupola was actually called M19. That just stuck in my memory for some reason, and it may be completely wrong. I do know we never referred to them as a CWS.)

Thanks. I've been schooled, and I appreciate it.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.


Gary (it IS Gary, isn’t it?):

You are absolutely right -- the hull would be the dead give-away in almost any case. Thanks for throwing in on this one. I actually did mention hulls as a method of differentiation in the fifth post of this thread:

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.


. . . but as I added, the original poster was specifically looking for information on identifying the turret . . . for whatever reason. Perhaps the tank is hull-down, or maybe the picture he is looking at is cropped, or maybe the turret wasn’t mounted on a tank, or maybe he wonders if maybe he might be looking at an M48A4 instead . . . the latter theory apparently being exactly what he had in mind. So I was pretty much concentrating on identifying the turret type, figuring that if he had really wanted to identify the tank type by the hull, he would have asked that question instead.

But you’re right, Gary, if you can see the hull (and if you’re confident that you’re not looking at an M48A4 -- or an ersatz M48A4), then you have a pretty good idea whether it is an M48-series vehicle or an M60-series vehicle.

Chuck, Mark, et al:

I had a look in Hunnicutt’s Patton, and the standard M60-series cupola is the M19 (although it is described in one caption on page 159 of that same book as the “M29”, which is presumably a typo). In a previous post, I used the name “M48A1E2” to describe the M48A4 ‘protoytpe’; this was incorrect, and should have been “M48A1E3” (additionally, there were two of these ‘prototype’ tanks built, not one). I did find it interesting that the M48A4 was originally going to be called the XM735, and the M48A5 was originally slated to be called the XM736.

I seems to me that the first time I can ever recall the M48A4 mentioned was in an article on post-WWII American armor in a magazine called . . . if my memory serves me correctly: Combat Illustrated . . . circa the mid- to late 1970s (or maybe the early 1980s). I can’t find it anywhere; I would think I would still have it. Does anyone recall that magazine or article?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum