±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 732
Total: 732
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Photo Gallery
05: Home
06: Downloads
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Member Screenshots
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Downloads
20: Community Forums
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Downloads
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Downloads
28: Downloads
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Photo Gallery
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Downloads
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Downloads
50: Community Forums
51: Downloads
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Member Screenshots
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Home
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: CPGlang
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Photo Gallery
79: News Archive
80: Photo Gallery
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Home
88: Your Account
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Photo Gallery
97: Photo Gallery
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Your Account
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Downloads
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Photo Gallery
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Downloads
133: Community Forums
134: News
135: Your Account
136: Home
137: CPGlang
138: Downloads
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Community Forums
146: Downloads
147: Statistics
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Member Screenshots
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Home
161: News
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Home
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: CPGlang
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: CPGlang
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Downloads
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Downloads
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Member Screenshots
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Downloads
279: Home
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Photo Gallery
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Downloads
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Home
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Downloads
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Photo Gallery
318: Community Forums
319: Your Account
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Your Account
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Statistics
357: Downloads
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: News
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Downloads
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Home
373: Photo Gallery
374: Statistics
375: News Archive
376: Downloads
377: Community Forums
378: Your Account
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Photo Gallery
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Member Screenshots
395: Photo Gallery
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Your Account
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Statistics
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Photo Gallery
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Your Account
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Downloads
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Photo Gallery
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Member Screenshots
441: Community Forums
442: Downloads
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Photo Gallery
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Your Account
457: Community Forums
458: Home
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: CPGlang
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Photo Gallery
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Home
486: Downloads
487: CPGlang
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Home
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Photo Gallery
503: CPGlang
504: Home
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Member Screenshots
510: Downloads
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: CPGlang
515: Community Forums
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Downloads
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Member Screenshots
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: News
545: Downloads
546: Community Forums
547: Downloads
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Community Forums
556: Your Account
557: CPGlang
558: Photo Gallery
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: News Archive
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Statistics
585: Community Forums
586: Photo Gallery
587: CPGlang
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: Downloads
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: News
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Downloads
605: Community Forums
606: Downloads
607: Community Forums
608: CPGlang
609: Photo Gallery
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Home
614: Community Forums
615: Home
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: Photo Gallery
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Member Screenshots
624: Photo Gallery
625: Home
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Photo Gallery
635: Community Forums
636: Photo Gallery
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Photo Gallery
644: CPGlang
645: Photo Gallery
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Photo Gallery
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Your Account
653: Community Forums
654: Photo Gallery
655: Community Forums
656: Home
657: Community Forums
658: Photo Gallery
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Photo Gallery
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: News
676: CPGlang
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Photo Gallery
689: Your Account
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Photo Gallery
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Home
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Home
705: Home
706: Home
707: Community Forums
708: Your Account
709: Photo Gallery
710: Photo Gallery
711: Community Forums
712: Home
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Home
716: Community Forums
717: Photo Gallery
718: Home
719: Photo Gallery
720: Community Forums
721: Home
722: Community Forums
723: Home
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
"Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:57 pm
Post subject: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Mainly for Oldtop, but Roy and some others may shed some light:

I'm trying to get a handle on what it was that made top-loading air filters less satisfactory than side loaders apart from convenience/access, if anything. That is, were they less efficient or just less likely to receive attention? I've crewed vehicles (M48A2, M60A1, M60A2) with both systems, but only at Ft. Knox which isn't as dusty as some other locations that come to mind.

Also, I notice that some of the top loaders on M60A1's have a smooth-sided armored box on the outward side while others have a single horizontal "ridge" there, like on this one:
image2.sina.com.cn/jc/...093650.jpg

...my pics of the M60A1 side-skirt test vehicle, "Hotpants", has this ridge too. I don't recall any function associated with it.

Thanks!
D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Hi Doug, all,

The top loading air cleaners were made of steel, rather than aluminum as the originals were. I recall that our maintenance guys didn't like the side loaders because the mechanisms were easily damaged, hard to repair, and the filter elements were often screwed up by crews trying to jam them back in. The doors were tricky and the seals often leaked, which is a problem when they are sucking air in that close to the tracks! The doors were a problem from the beginning, and the horizontal rib your pic shows is a reinforcment to stiffen the door and keep from flexing. (Yup, that's a side loader in your pic.)

I remember fighting with both, and hated the side loaders. The filter element was a very tight fit, and had to be held at just the right angle. However, you had to stand beside the tank and hold the heavy element at roughly shoulder-height to do this, which made it double hard. We usually used two folks to do it, one on the ground and one on the tank (leaning over the side) to guide it into the slots. The top loaders were a piece of cake, and the element just dropped into it's cradle.

Sometime after the A1s began to be produced, fairly early in the run, they changed to the top loading 'armored' type. I remember hearing that this was originally done by the Israelis, and adopted by us. But there are/were some A1s with the old-style side-loaders. The RISE modifications were supposed to replace these, when they were done.

This is all from deep memory, so I await corrections from better memories!

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Thanks, Chuck...

Only now, I'm really confused! I based my phrasing on "Oldtops" comment in the other thread:

One indecater that this is an first production is "side loader " air filter housing which is the same as on the M48A3 upgrade, M60A1s picker up the "top loader" armored box type...and with which the vehicle was damned for its operation life.


...which I understood (perhaps incorrectly) to mean that the toploaders were the troublesome types.

As I didn't personally experience problems with either, I'm just trying to clarify in my mind which system was preferred, and why. Sounds like you're more a fan of the toploaders.

Cheers!
D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

The first problem with top loaders was they stood out and everything fired at the tank hit them, 10 micorms (I could put that much dirt in your eye and you wouldn't notice it)of dust would kill the 1790 diesel engine.
The side loaders were postive sealing (when the cover was closed it was sealed) . The top loaders lid had two legs (one on each side) that engaed two studs on each side of air filter cage, when the lid close it was desiged for the leg to force the element (cage) seal into the front of the aircleaner housing so that no unfiltered air could be drawn into the engine intake..or all air had to go through the filter element first. The filter elements were a group of bag shaped cloth or paper envelopes held in a welded steel cage with a rubber gasget on the open end.
Problem #1 Each manufacter placed the metal studs a little bit off from what the specs called for, so when you closed the lid the leg may or may not engae the two studs and complete seal.
Problem#2 It was possible for the crewmen to put the element in backwards and by standing on the lid get the bolt holes to line up enough to get the bolts in...results were raw unfiltered air in the engine.
Problem #3 The soution was to weld shims to the lid legs to make sure they made contacted with the studs on the element cage. To do this the instuction for testing the seal was to coat the element seal with art white lead oil paint close and bolt down the lid then unbolt it and open the lid and check to see if there was a complet impression from the seal on the end of the housing...."However" because each manufacter place the studs differantly if you had welded shims the seal could end up too tight and the gasget seal was crushed and no airtight seal..raw unfiltered air (again).
My solution was to glue plastic shim or ring cut from PVC pipe on the studs, that way the ring would crush before the seal did and I knew we had a good seal no matter what...ya it worked fine!
As for the crewmen you simply put alining makes on the filter elements and the housing and hopefully the dummys would get it right..maybe.
...sub-problem err lets call it 3A problem, on thr front of each filter housing was a elbow that conducted the filtered air to the engine intake, the problem was the 3/8" capscrews holding it to the filter housing would work lose (even with lock washers) and you had (again) raw unfiltered air getting into the engine. the solution was to go to 1/2 capscrews and a spring washer...well it worked for me.
sub-problem 3B...the cloth elements were which designed to be cleaned and reinstalled, these elements developed holes in them and the only way to detected them was to build a "ligt box" over which you placed the elements (in a dark room), as you found each hole you placed a drop of "Elmer's glue on it. This problem alone killed over 50% of the dead lined engines, the solution was to use paper "one time" uses filter element which were in such a short supply that they'er production never caught up with the needs....so tank units clean and patched the paper elements and reused them...raw air problem again!!!
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Folks!

Thanks Top for explaining your post. I guess that one is a case of the repairer's point of veiw. Surprised

I was like Doug(SORRY DOUG). While I didn't work directly with the M60s very much, I never heard any of the tankers I was around saying the top loaders were a problem. For the most part, all of them loved the top loading design. But then maybe it was a major case of they didn't know their last engine failure was caused by raw air intake.

That's two things I have learned today!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

- Roy_A_Lingle

I was like Dong. Smile


Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:19 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Hi everyone,
My experience was with top loaders only, which came in armored and aluminum. Aluminum was on some of the A1's we had in 1-63 Fort Riley. The only side loaders I had any dealings with was when the Kansas National Gaurd had straight 60's and would be on the the range. The crews hated them. They wanted the simplicity of the top loader. Never had a problem getting filters either, got new ones every Q-service. I remember having to check the seals on ours too with that paint Ole Top talks about. They all sealed fine, this was in Germany, Riley and Irwin. The filters where made by Donaldson (?) from what I remember. If there was a sealing problem it would've been very evident at Irwin. I think the biggest improvement was the VDSS system, which IIRC stood for Vehicle Dust Scavenge System. It got rid of the blower motors and could self clean the filters. We had that system at Irwin. Even had a warning light in the drivers compartment. I absolutely loved that system. As far as placing a filter in wrong, yes, it could be done but you had to be a rock with lips to not notice it was when you closed the lid. To me the top loader was the way to go, and for what it's worth, blowing a pack was not a common thing, even with all the miles we drove in Germany. I guess my comparisons are also skewed by my very negative experiences with the M1 system and it's very high sensitivity to dust.
I am still trying to figure how the side loaders were less of a target than the top loaders on the 60, Both are loacated in the same place and took up the same amount of space. At least the later model top loader was armored and not aluminum.

My perspective

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

I am still trying to figure how the side loaders were less of a target than the top loaders on the 60, Both are loacated in the same place and took up the same amount of space. At least the later model top loader was armored and not aluminum.


I might be wrong about this, but I think Oldtop was not referring to "hostile fire" when referring to what "might be fired at them", but dirt, debris, dust and the like. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong 'bout 'dat.

Well, what's emerging here is at least a good explanation of why I was confused...it seems there are at least two bodies of opinion out there regarding air filters, and maybe some of that follows the perspective of crews vs. mechanics or something. For sure there's a basis of experience to support both views.

My own one was that there was no significant difference between the two types...each having it's own virtues and vices. But I've heard strong negative opinions expressed about the toploader before and didn't fully understand the reason for it. I'm not sure I do now, but at least there's something to go on.

I'd sure like to hear any other opinions from those with time on either or both types.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:29 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Doug, Roy, Oletop, everyone!

I'm guessing that which one you hated more depended on which one gave you the most problems.

I remember our maintenance guys being very firm about putting the air filters in right, so Oletop's comments probably cover the same concerns. I remember the effort that was required to get the lids closed on the top-loaders, and how careful we had to be to get them right.

One needed and welcome improvement on the M60A3s were restriction indicators on the intake elbows...as long as no one knocked them off. They were vacuum indicators, similar to those used on many commercial diesels, that told you it was time to change/clean your filters.

I do know that the maintenance guys didn't have much nice to say about the side loaders, especially the doors. Apparently, they were subject to warpage under some conditions, which broke the seals on the filters. Fixing the doors was quite challenging, and being aluminum they were virtually impossible to weld under field conditions. The latch handle was held shut by a steel bolt, tapped into the aluminum housing. Inevitably, some young, strapping, not-so-bright crewman would overtighten the bolt and strip the hole. At some point, there were no practical bolts available large enough to retap the hole again, and the entire housing had to be replaced (or the hole had to be welded up...cheaper and simpler, but not likely). Being in a Reserve unit in the early 80's,parts were slow coming, and a simple stupid repair like that could deadline a tank for months or more.

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

What was the compounded problem was due to dust ingestion (both filters and lose elbows) there was a shortage of engines (RISE mod) at the same time a batch of "bad" pistions got into the system so maint units were caught between a rock and a hard place as were rebuild centers, you would see engines with mixed parts (RISE and non-RISE mixed). Once the new air filtering system was in place on the production line most of the problems were ironed out.....but from 1975 to 80 maints was pure hell in the support units. As for this thing between the side loaders vs top loaders, just look at the hight deference, the Israeli IDF pointed out time after time the damage done to the housing in combat...why in the world would you desgne a vehicle with its air filtering system sitting out in the open on the fenders?????
Back to top
View user's profile
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

This story begins with the M48s. Like most med to heavy tanks they are limited by their range of operation, if one reads the manuals you'll the range of U.S. diesel powered tanks is around 300 miles. However this was not the story with the gasoline fueled models, M48s and A1s were lucky if they got 90 miles per fuel load. (the german Tiger 1 had a ture combat range of 70 to 80 plus miles) The Army tried fuel injected engines for a few more miles, I know there are pictures foating around of M48s with barrels of gas strapped to a rack on their ass to push for more range (made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck just to think about it)...So heres the rule of thumb I use in calulating the fuel needed to support a tracked vehicle in the field. For every hour of cross-country operation you lose 5% of your total road range on top of you normal fuel consumtion...or a addistional 50% of your total road range milage every 10 hours...or if you burn half your fuel in 10 hours cross contry move you'er out of the go go stuff. This was the wall every army in the world was up against..and still is. So what has this to do with airfilters you ask. Well when the U.S. went to the dieselized M60 they remove the "lil joe" (APU) and installed form -fitting fuel tanks in the engine compartment, one other thing had been removed, the aircleaners which has sat in the left and right front of the engine compartment (fuel injected M48s had been the first with airfilters moved in this manner ). Now we had a med tank with a 300 mile road range and better than 150 mile cross country range (the diesel powered M103 heavy tank could now get better than 100 miles per fuel load with twice the fuel tankage)...However we now had the airfilter housings sitting rightt out in the open for everybody to shoot at, it was like the designers had said "oh were should we put these things")
Back to top
View user's profile
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

"I do know that the maintenance guys didn't have much nice to say about the side loaders, especially the doors. Apparently, they were subject to warpage under some conditions, which broke the seals on the filters. Fixing the doors was quite challenging, and being aluminum they were virtually impossible to weld under field conditions. The latch handle was held shut by a steel bolt, tapped into the aluminum housing. Inevitably, some young, strapping, not-so-bright crewman would overtighten the bolt and strip the hole. At some point, there were no practical bolts available large enough to retap the hole again, and the entire housing had to be replaced (or the hole had to be welded up...cheaper and simpler, but not likely). Being in a Reserve unit in the early 80's,parts were slow coming, and a simple stupid repair like that could deadline a tank for months or more."
I was lucky enough to have a LM-62 welding unit with a "mig" system so I could rework the housings, once the word got out that I was repairing the housings I had Army reserve and NG units bring them to my shop for repair. With gobs of money for the Marine Reserves as well as pro welders I had a first class welding and machine shop, I mean my reserve troops built ships and powerplants for a living so they did great work.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:14 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Folks!

I always though that putting the air filters out on the fender was a compromise for some reason. Never realized it was to make room for larger fuel tanks.

One thing I have learned from this, which surpised me, was the fact that the side loading boxes where made out of aluminum. Shocked

Now that is a weight compromise and I guess the IDF proved that it wasn't worth it. If I understand it right, they were the ones who came up with the armored version?

I think this is a major example of everything that goes into a tank is a compromise with something else. Only combat proves if each compromise is a good or bad idea.

Thanks Top!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

- oldtop
What was the compounded problem was due to dust ingestion (both filters and lose elbows) there was a shortage of engines (RISE mod) at the same time a batch of "bad" pistions got into the system so maint units were caught between a rock and a hard place as were rebuild centers, you would see engines with mixed parts (RISE and non-RISE mixed). Once the new air filtering system was in place on the production line most of the problems were ironed out.....but from 1975 to 80 maints was pure hell in the support units.


This at least partially explains my lack of familiarity with this problem in spite of the fact that I crewed side loader and top loader vehicles. All my experience was prior to 1974, so RISE parts availability was not an issue. Furthermore, I ETS'd about 60 days after the October (Yom Kippur) war, so any lessons learned by the Israelis during that one (apart from vulnerability to TOW missiles and the shortcomings of committing tanks without infantry support) were too late in coming to reach me. I'd moved on to other things.

I was also probably a bit spoiled by serving my last ~2 years at the Armor Board, one of the most support-rich units in all of tank-dom.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:22 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

The Israelis got a way with "cheating" for years (sending tanks in with out grunt support) till Yom Kippur..after all, the enemy had always ran away before! Any 2nd Lt in any other army knew you don't do that!!!
Know one ever want to fes up to how bad the M60 engine shortage was in the Marines, I had M60s sitting for over a year on my maint line/bone yard deadlined due to the lack of engines. And I couldn't get the parts to rebuild.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum