±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 749
Total: 749
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: CPGlang
03: Home
04: Photo Gallery
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: Your Account
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Member Screenshots
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Downloads
27: Home
28: Member Screenshots
29: Member Screenshots
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Photo Gallery
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Downloads
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Downloads
49: Community Forums
50: CPGlang
51: News Archive
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Statistics
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Downloads
63: Photo Gallery
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Photo Gallery
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: CPGlang
82: Community Forums
83: News Archive
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Your Account
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Downloads
93: Home
94: Downloads
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Home
100: Downloads
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Your Account
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Downloads
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Downloads
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Photo Gallery
135: News
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Downloads
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Downloads
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Your Account
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Downloads
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Statistics
160: Home
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Your Account
171: Downloads
172: Community Forums
173: Downloads
174: Your Account
175: Photo Gallery
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Downloads
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Home
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Member Screenshots
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Your Account
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Member Screenshots
223: Downloads
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Downloads
228: Photo Gallery
229: Your Account
230: Downloads
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Home
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: News
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Photo Gallery
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: News Archive
261: News
262: Photo Gallery
263: News
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Downloads
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Downloads
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Photo Gallery
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: CPGlang
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Home
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Photo Gallery
299: Home
300: Photo Gallery
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: CPGlang
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Your Account
313: Photo Gallery
314: Member Screenshots
315: Home
316: Home
317: CPGlang
318: Community Forums
319: CPGlang
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: CPGlang
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Member Screenshots
335: Member Screenshots
336: Photo Gallery
337: Downloads
338: News
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Community Forums
348: Member Screenshots
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Downloads
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Downloads
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Photo Gallery
377: Photo Gallery
378: LinkToUs
379: LinkToUs
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Home
387: Downloads
388: CPGlang
389: Home
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Member Screenshots
393: Photo Gallery
394: Home
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Home
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Home
405: Downloads
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Downloads
409: Photo Gallery
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Member Screenshots
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Your Account
419: Home
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Downloads
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Home
434: Member Screenshots
435: Photo Gallery
436: Home
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Your Account
445: CPGlang
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Downloads
450: Community Forums
451: Member Screenshots
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Downloads
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: CPGlang
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Home
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: News Archive
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Downloads
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Statistics
498: News
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: LinkToUs
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: CPGlang
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Home
511: Community Forums
512: Home
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Downloads
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: CPGlang
528: Member Screenshots
529: Photo Gallery
530: Photo Gallery
531: Your Account
532: CPGlang
533: Member Screenshots
534: News
535: Home
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Member Screenshots
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Home
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Downloads
568: Downloads
569: Community Forums
570: Home
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Your Account
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Member Screenshots
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: CPGlang
591: Photo Gallery
592: Downloads
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Member Screenshots
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: News
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Photo Gallery
629: Community Forums
630: Your Account
631: Photo Gallery
632: Home
633: Home
634: Home
635: CPGlang
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Downloads
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Home
651: News
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: News
664: Photo Gallery
665: Photo Gallery
666: Photo Gallery
667: Photo Gallery
668: Community Forums
669: Photo Gallery
670: Home
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Home
680: Home
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Member Screenshots
684: Community Forums
685: Home
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Your Account
692: Downloads
693: Community Forums
694: Your Account
695: Community Forums
696: Your Account
697: Photo Gallery
698: CPGlang
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Photo Gallery
708: Photo Gallery
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Home
713: Downloads
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Photo Gallery
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Photo Gallery
722: Photo Gallery
723: Photo Gallery
724: Community Forums
725: Photo Gallery
726: Community Forums
727: Downloads
728: Home
729: Photo Gallery
730: Photo Gallery
731: Home
732: Home
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Photo Gallery
737: CPGlang
738: Community Forums
739: Home
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Home
745: Photo Gallery
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:03 pm
Post subject: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Thats the story in Jane's Defence Weekly apparently...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Its been rumor and half truths for years now.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The article indicates negotiations are underway to purchase or buy for use in Afghanistan - the M777 howitzers were bought the same way. The tanks would come from German army reserve stocks & be upgraded with mine protection by KMW.

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

That was the rumor about two months ago when the decision on keeping the Leo1s was made. I think there were even reports of a Canadian team going over to Germany to begin the negotiations. That was all downplayed by the government and nothing ever came of it. Maybe the team was over there shopping for the Leo1 upgrades instead?

Either way, they just spent a bunch of money upgrading their Leo1s for service over there - that doesn't give me the impression that they're intending to replace them anytime soon.

That said, I'd love to see Canadian Leo2s. Or a Candian version of the Abrams that the Aussies got.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

This is very quickly going beyond good rumour. I have been told directly from a contact at the Armour School that a team was sent to Germany on February 14th to start looking over the Leopard 2s.

There is no one looking at any more Leopard 1 upgrades for the Canadian Leopard C2s. Kraus-Maffei have told the Canadian Forces that they will no longer be making any Leopard 1 replacement parts...the Leopard 1 is done. Spare parts are currently being scavenged from where ever they can be found for the C2s in Afghanistan...including from Leopard C1 and C2 gate guards.

The numbers requested are-

20 Leopard 2A6Ms for use in Afghanistan...most likely these will leased as the German Army only has 40 of this variant.

80 Leopard 2A4s...no idea if these will be upgraded to Leopard 2A5 variant.

Funny that Jane's is only running a story now...this info has been out since February 9th.


Last edited by Jason_Bobrowich on Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:49 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

- Hellfish6

Either way, they just spent a bunch of money upgrading their Leo1s for service over there - that doesn't give me the impression that they're intending to replace them anytime soon.


The irony in Canadian budgeting is it is easier to fix the old whatevers than it is to buy new. The news releases on the C2 program were reluctant to admit to buying "new" tanks. No, these were replacement turrets (which happened to come on individual tracked turret transporters). The hulls were literally unmentionable.

Clive Law's book on Canadian sniper rifles recounts how the C3 sniper rifles have become a classic example. I paraphrase; one year the Life Cycle Material Manager (LCMM) bought barrels and stocks. The next year he bought new receivers. Under a separate contract the old rifles were rebuilt. The upshot was 1970s' Parker Hale 1200TX rifles swapped out for 1980's Parker Hale M87 receivers! They aren't new rifles - they're replacement parts.
Back to top
View user's profile
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Yeah. Check it out. Guess your source was dead on, Neal.

www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-leo...afghan.htm

Rumours emerged on 10 Feb 2007 that Canada was tank shopping in Germany. Media reports [1] said that Canada had negotiated the lease of 20 Leopard 2A6M tanks from Bundeswehr stocks and purchased 80 more older Leopard 2A4s. The newer 2A6Ms, which have add-on mine-protection, would be sent to Kandahar. Less well-protected Leopard 2A4s would go to Canada for training purposes. Both models differ considerably from serving Leopard C2s.


Since the latest Leopard model [2] cannot be delivered quickly, the 2A6M was leased instead – mine protection includes added floor plates, blast-resistant crew seats, plus revised ammunition stowage. The basic vehicle is a Leopard 2A6 [3] with third-generation composite armour (similar in both shape and composition to the heavy MEXAS add-on armour kits applied to the Canadian Forces Leopard C2s sent to Kandahar).


The older Leopard 2A4 has a completely different turret with more upright armour. The gun is also different. Both 2A4s and 2A6Ms have Rheinmetall 120mm smooth bore guns but the 2A6 gun barrel is 1.3m longer. This gives the gun higher muzzle velocity (more useful in tank battles than in the direct-fire support role). Secondary armament for both Leopard models is two 7.62mm machineguns – presumably C6s for 2A4s and German MG3s [4] for 2A6Ms.


This lease/purchase surprised Canadian media but deployed Leopards are wearing out fast and it may be simpler/cheaper to replace than repair. In light of the German refusal to send troops to Kandahar, it galls to see Canadian defence dollars building up Angela Merkel’s treasury. Still, needs must and the deal means quick delivery, spares, maintenance software etc.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The CASR article is just compiled from existing media articles. They have no source or CF insider information.

Just so you know CASR articles and their editorial opinions are not seen as fully credible by serving or ex-military. They are based at Simon Fraser University in the Vancouver area. The articles are interesting but they appear to do a lot of surmising and unconfirmed foreshadowing.

Even in the article they are stating that the new tanks have already been leased/purchased....not confirmed yet.
Back to top
View user's profile
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Ottawa to lease 20 new tanks for Afghan mission
Updated Tue. Apr. 3 2007 5:42 PM ET
Canadian Press
OTTAWA -- A federal cabinet committee has given the green light to the lease of 20 state-of-the-art tanks to replace aging armoured vehicles in Afghanistan, The Canadian Press has learned.
The cabinet priorities and planning committee approved the lease of the German-built Leopard A6M tanks last week, said a Defence Department source, who asked not to be named.
The recommendation, which is unlikely to be overturned, is now on Prime Minister Stephen Harper's desk for final approval.
The news Tuesday came as Gen. Andrew Leslie, the country's top army officer, said he might have to consider pulling existing tanks -- which don't have air conditioning -- out of service in Afghanistan this summer because of the heat.
He also told troops in Kandahar to expect a decision from the prime minister on the new tanks within a week.
The new tanks have air conditioning, as well as improved protection against road-side bombs and suicide vehicles, both of which have been packing progressively bigger punches lately.
The army has a handful of older Leopard tanks, which are currently doing duty in western Kandahar as part of NATO's Operation Achilles.
The deal, which apparently includes access to ample spare parts, also gives Canada the option to purchase an unspecified number of additional tanks at a later date.
Reports last winter suggested that in addition to a lease, the army wanted to purchase 80 new Leopards, but the source said that number is likely to be scaled back.
Harper wouldn't bite on questions about the future of the vehicles.
"Cabinet has been discussing the tank issue and we'll have an announcement on that shortly,'' he said in Kitchener, Ont.
Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, in Montreal for a speech, said he wasn't aware the issue was resolved.
A Defence Department spokesman didn't deny that a lease arrangement has been struck.
"We are exploring a number of options to address an operational requirement,'' said Lt. Adam Thomson. "However, we have nothing to announce at this moment.''
The defence source could not say how much the arrangement was worth, but brand new Leopard tanks cost roughly US $6 million each.
Currently, the army has 17 of its old 45-tonne tanks patrolling the desert and dirt roadways of rural Kandahar. The biggest drawback to the vehicles is their lack of air conditioning in a climate where daytime summer temperatures soar above 50C.
Defence Department researchers have looked at installing air conditioners in the vehicles but that would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per vehicle.
Another idea proposes to give tank crew cooling vests - the same kind used by professional race car drivers - but they would be cumbersome when layered along with existing body armour.
Aside from the comfort factor, the lease of new tanks is seen as a more cost-effective solution, said the defence source.
Alex Morrison of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies said buying new equipment is better than retrofitting.
"It just makes more sense,'' he said. "This is a decision that's been in the mill for at least the last seven months.''
New Democrat defence critic Dawn Black said she's not opposed to the lease arrangement, but only because it means tank crews won't have to roast.
"I think it was irresponsible to deploy them, knowing they weren't suitable for the climate,'' she said.
In February, a policy think-tank produced a report that criticized Canada's deployment of tanks to Afghanistan, saying the 1970s vintage Leopard-C2 vehicles were vulnerable to insurgent attacks.
Researcher Michael Wallace, of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, argued that new Leopard A6Ms would also be vulnerable to road-side bombs and rocket-propelled grenades. He said the introduction of tanks had the potential to spark an "arms race'' with insurgents, prompting the Taliban to build bigger bombs.
Morrison dismissed the arguments, calling them ridiculous.
"What would they have us do?'' he asked. "Take the tanks home and then the insurgents won't use whatever weapon they have? What will happen in the end is the insurgents would control the whole country.''

www.ctv.ca/servlet/Art...hub=Canada

edit:CTV news combined two stories together and killed the link I posted above. Here is the new link to the re-written article.

www.ctv.ca/servlet/Art...TopStories
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Its been formally announced - 2A6s even...

www.forces.gc.ca/site/...sp?id=2251
Protection the top priority with tank acquisition
NR–07.022 - April 12, 2007

QUEBEC CITY, QUEBEC – The ongoing commitment of Canada’s New Government to the safety of Canadian Forces members engaged in deployed operations was front and centre today when the Honourable Gordon O’Connor, Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Michael Fortier, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, and General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, confirmed plans to renew the Canadian Forces’ tank capability.

To replace the Canadian Forces’ 30-year old Leopard 1 tanks, the Government will purchase up to 100 Leopard 2 tanks, as well as securing the loan of 20 Leopard 2A6 tanks for use in Afghanistan this summer. The Leopard 2 tanks are newer, more heavily armoured and more technologically advanced than Canada’s Leopard 1s. Their advanced features include significantly increased personnel protection against explosive devices and landmines, an ability to travel considerably faster in difficult terrain, more powerful engines, and stronger firing capabilities.

“Equipping Canada’s soldiers with the best protection is my top priority. By immediately acquiring stronger and more heavily protected tanks, our soldiers in Afghanistan have the best equipment possible to offer them protection during this mission,� said Minister O’Connor. “This government is committed to providing our Canadian Forces with the equipment they need to do the very demanding jobs we have asked of them.�

Minister Fortier said: “This announcement demonstrates Canada’s New Government’s commitment to procure critical operational equipment as quickly as possible for the Canadian Forces, while getting the best value for Canadian taxpayers.�

When examining the surplus tank option, Canada approached six allied nations to enquire about availability and thoroughly evaluated all formal proposals.

“Simply put, tanks help save lives and provide soldiers the right tools for the mission while enhancing their protection,� said General Hillier. “In Afghanistan, Canada’s Leopard 1 tanks have provided close direct fire support and mitigated the threat of mines and improvised explosive devices. This acquisition will further enhance the protection available to our soldiers.�

The 100 Leopard 2 tanks will be purchased from the Netherlands for the long-term requirements of the Canadian Forces, and should be delivered to Canada soon after completion of the government-to-government agreement, anticipated by end of summer 2007. They will be upgraded in Canada to final Canadian Forces standards.

The 20 combat-ready Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks will be loaned by Germany for short-term requirements and will be deployed to Afghanistan this summer with the next rotation of Canadian troops. In addition to being newer, more heavily protected and more technologically advanced, the Leopard 2A6s will generate significantly less heat than the hydraulic systems of Canada’s 30-year-old Leopard 1 fleet.

The Leopard 1 tanks were first deployed in Afghanistan fall 2006 to meet new operational requirements of the Canadian Forces.

Sale of 100 Leopard Tanks to Canada
Netherlands Ministry of Defence: April 12, 2007

Defence has sold hundred Leopard fighting tanks to Canada. The
agreement was confessed made during the visit of the Minister of
Defence, Eimert van Middelkoop, to Canada.

It concerns twenty Leopard 2A6s and eighty Leopard 2A4s.

Disposal of the tanks is a result of an earlier decision to reduce
the main battle tank inventory of the Dutch Army. The Netherlands
will retain 110 operational Leopard 2 A6 tanks.

Canada will upgrade and modernize the Leopards at its own expense.
The Netherlands will provide training for Canadian instructors as
part of the agreement. Training will begin in May.

Defence minister Eimert van Middelkoop was in Canada to attend the
Regional Command South Ministerial meeting in Quebec.

Backgrounder: Renewing the Canadian Forces' Tank Capability
BG–07.012 - April 12, 2007

THE REQUIREMENT
The heavily protected direct fire capability of a main battle tank is an invaluable tool in the arsenal of any military. The intensity of recent conflicts in Central Asia and the Middle East has shown western militaries that tanks provide protection that cannot be matched by more lightly armoured wheeled vehicles.

Simply put, tanks save lives, providing soldiers with a high level of protection. In Afghanistan, the Taliban’s use of lethal and readily available anti-armour weapons, such as improvised explosive devices (IEDs), is a clear threat. Canada’s Leopard 1 tanks have provided close direct fire support and mitigated the threat of IEDs, as well as landmines. The tanks have also provided the Canadian Forces (CF) with the capability to travel to locations that would otherwise be inaccessible to wheeled light armoured vehicles, including Taliban defensive positions.

Renewing Canada’s tank capability will enable the CF to meet current operational needs in the short and long term. Canada’s 30-year old Leopard 1 tanks are due for replacement, and Leopard 2 tanks offer more protection against IEDs and landmines; and are technologically more advanced than their predecessor. Furthermore, by 2012 there will no longer be logistics support and spare parts for the turrets of Leopard 1s, resulting in complete obsolescence by 2015.

THE PROCESS
A number of options for renewing the tank capability were considered, ranging from refurbishment to surplus to new.

Refurbishing the tanks is not an option as the 30-year old Leopard 1 turrets will be obsolete in 2015. It is also unsuited to operations in hot climates. Acquiring new tanks off a production line was also examined, but delivery would not occur for a few years and the individual tank cost is approximately three times as expensive as procuring and upgrading the same capability that exists on the surplus market.

When examining the surplus tank option, Canada approached six allied nations to enquire about availability. Formal proposals from three nations were thoroughly evaluated by Public Works and Government Services Canada and the Department of National Defence (DND) in terms of price, upgrade costs, delivery schedule, operational performance, survivability and through-life operating and maintenance costs. Based on this evaluation, the decision was taken to acquire up to 100 surplus Leopard 2 tanks from the Netherlands and negotiate a short-term loan arrangement with Germany to borrow 20 combat-ready Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks to address immediate operational requirements. This decision represented the most balanced and affordable approach for both short-and long-term requirements.

Canada is negotiating government-to-government agreements for both borrowing and acquiring the Leopard 2 tanks. The total project cost of the loaned tanks, the acquisition of 100 surplus tanks from the Netherlands, the requisite upgrades and enhancements to this new Leopard 2 fleet, and an initial acquisition of spare parts is $650 million, which will be funded from existing departmental allocations.

DEPLOYING COMBAT-READY TANKS
The tanks being loaned from Germany are fully operational, and will be deployed to Afghanistan in conjunction with the next rotation of personnel this summer.

These tanks are able to operate in intense heat as their electric turret systems and more powerful engines generate significantly less heat when operating than the hydraulic systems of Canada’s 30-year-old Leopard 1 fleet. They will also be fitted with climate control systems once in theatre.

ACQUIRING A PROVEN, MODERN MAIN BATTLE TANK
The surplus, modern Leopard 2 tanks being acquired from the Netherlands represent a unique opportunity to acquire proven, effective main battle tanks at a fraction of the cost of a similar, new tank. These tanks have been well maintained and stored in climate-controlled facilities. Due diligence has shown that these tanks will serve Canada effectively, well into the future. In addition, surplus Leopard 2 tanks have been acquired by a number of nations in recent years and have been put into operational service very successfully. This is a proven capability. Their advanced features include significantly increased personnel protection against explosive devices and landmines, an ability to travel considerably faster in difficult terrain, more powerful engines, and stronger firing capabilities.

CANADA’S NEW LEOPARD 2 FLEET
The acquisition of 100 tanks represents the minimum fleet size to support a deployed tank squadron. These 100 vehicles would be broken down into operational and supporting squadrons as follows:

For deployed operations, the Canadian Forces need two combat-ready squadrons of approximately 20 tanks each: one for deployment and a second for rotation into theatre to allow for depot repair and overhaul of the first.
An additional two squadrons of 20 tanks each are required for collective and individual training in Canada.
Individual tank training would be conducted by the squadron based at the Combat Training Centre at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick
The squadron based at CFB Wainwright at the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre would conduct collective unit training to prepare for deployments.
The final 20 vehicles will consist of key support vehicles such as armoured recovery vehicles, armoured bridge-laying vehicles and armoured engineering vehicles (i.e. dozer, plough, excavator).
BENEFITS FOR CANADIANS
This acquisition represents a significant opportunity for Canadian industry. Once negotiations are complete, the Dutch Leopard 2 tanks will be transported to Canada where they will receive the necessary upgrades to final Canadian Forces standards.

In the coming months, the Government of Canada will conduct one or more fair, open and competitive processes for the long-term in-service support of this fleet.

The Canadian Industrial Benefits policy will apply as appropriate. In this context, it may apply to future support, repair or upgrade contracts. The Canadian Industrial Benefits policy is the Government of Canada’s way of leveraging benefits to the Canadian economy as a result of our defence procurements.

THE FUTURE
The Canadian Forces have always planned to retain a direct-fire capability and recent conflicts have confirmed the importance of retaining a tracked tank capability. The Leopard 2 main battle tanks will bring strength, added protection and the ability to access difficult terrain that a wheeled vehicle cannot provide.

This acquisition is a further demonstration of Canada’s New Government’s commitment to renew and transform the Canadian Forces, providing them the equipment they need to do the demanding jobs we as Canadians ask them to do.
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

"CANADA’S NEW LEOPARD 2 FLEET
The acquisition of 100 tanks represents the minimum fleet size to support a deployed tank squadron. These 100 vehicles would be broken down into operational and supporting squadrons as follows:

For deployed operations, the Canadian Forces need two combat-ready squadrons of approximately 20 tanks each: one for deployment and a second for rotation into theatre to allow for depot repair and overhaul of the first.

An additional two squadrons of 20 tanks each are required for collective and individual training in Canada. Individual tank training would be conducted by the squadron based at the Combat Training Centre at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick

The squadron based at CFB Wainwright at the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre would conduct collective unit training to prepare for deployments.

The final 20 vehicles will consist of key support vehicles such as armoured recovery vehicles, armoured bridge-laying vehicles and armoured engineering vehicles (i.e. dozer, plough, excavator)."

So I wonder if the Beaver engineer vehicles will stay in use until the newer ones arrive?
Back to top
View user's profile
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:03 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

That explains the 2 lowloaders with Leopard 2A4s on the highway towards Rotterdam last week. Rumours are that the Canadians will be trained on this tanks by the operational tankbatallions and not the cavalry school.

I have to dig up my old Leopard 2A4 mastergunner licence Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

All the Leopard 2A4s that Canada is purchasing from the Dutch will be upgraded to the Leopard 2A6 version with additional Canadian modifications.

40 of the 80 2A6s will be further upgraded to the 2A6M version with additional mine protection. 20 of the 2A6Ms will be deployed to Afghanistan when the German loaned 2A6Ms are returned in the summer of 2008. The other 20 2A6Ms will be kept in Canada on standby as operational replacements for the tanks in Afghanistan.

Canadian armoured instructors will first go the Netherlands starting in May and then to Germany. The Germans will instruct the Canadian crewman that will take the German loaned 2A6Ms to Afghanistan and the Canadian instructors will shadow them while the instruction is taking place. For the tours to follow in 2008 the instructors for the crewman will be Canadian.

The Badger, Beaver, and Taurus will all be replaced with Leopard 2 based vehicles. They will stay in use until the new vehicles arrive.

Don't be suprised to see the Leopard C2 still operating in combat in Afghanistan along side the German loaned Leopard 2A6Ms....the C2 has the dozer blade, mine plow, and mine rollers....the 2A6M does not.
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

- Jason_Bobrowich


The Badger, Beaver, and Taurus will all be replaced with Leopard 2 based vehicles. They will stay in use until the new vehicles arrive.

Don't be suprised to see the Leopard C2 still operating in combat in Afghanistan along side the German loaned Leopard 2A6Ms....the C2 has the dozer blade, mine plow, and mine rollers....the 2A6M does not.


Those specialist vehicles may yet prove to be the war winners. Dozer blade vs mud wall; Beaver excavator arm vs grape hut; and mine plow vs double stack AT mine. I haven't seen much in the news about gun tanks except for a few direct fire missions from one of the FOBs.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The Badger is the AEV and the Beaver is the AVLB...no Beaver AVLBs deployed to Afghanistan.

OPSEC is the reason no one is seeing what exactly the tanks or Badgers are doing over there and believe me I have talked to some of the returning crews already and they are doing much more than sitting in the FOBs.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum