±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 821
Total: 821
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Downloads
05: Member Screenshots
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Home
27: Statistics
28: Home
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Your Account
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Downloads
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Downloads
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Downloads
59: Photo Gallery
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: CPGlang
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Search
80: Member Screenshots
81: Community Forums
82: Downloads
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Downloads
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Photo Gallery
90: Community Forums
91: Downloads
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Your Account
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Your Account
114: Community Forums
115: Downloads
116: Home
117: Photo Gallery
118: Member Screenshots
119: News Archive
120: Community Forums
121: Downloads
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: CPGlang
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Downloads
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Downloads
151: Photo Gallery
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Downloads
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Photo Gallery
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Downloads
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Downloads
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Downloads
180: Community Forums
181: Member Screenshots
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Photo Gallery
188: Downloads
189: Downloads
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Downloads
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Downloads
197: Community Forums
198: Your Account
199: CPGlang
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: CPGlang
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Your Account
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Home
230: Statistics
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Your Account
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: News
241: Downloads
242: Downloads
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Your Account
246: Community Forums
247: Downloads
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Home
251: CPGlang
252: Downloads
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: News
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Downloads
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Your Account
263: Community Forums
264: Downloads
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Photo Gallery
287: Community Forums
288: Your Account
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Photo Gallery
299: Home
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Statistics
313: Photo Gallery
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Downloads
319: Photo Gallery
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Downloads
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Member Screenshots
327: Downloads
328: Downloads
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: Downloads
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: News Archive
340: Your Account
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Statistics
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Downloads
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: CPGlang
360: Community Forums
361: Photo Gallery
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Home
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Downloads
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Community Forums
387: Downloads
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Photo Gallery
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Downloads
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Member Screenshots
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Photo Gallery
408: Home
409: Home
410: Downloads
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Home
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: News
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Downloads
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Downloads
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Community Forums
452: CPGlang
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Photo Gallery
462: Community Forums
463: Downloads
464: Community Forums
465: Downloads
466: Photo Gallery
467: Member Screenshots
468: Home
469: Your Account
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Downloads
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Member Screenshots
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Downloads
500: Home
501: News Archive
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Member Screenshots
512: Photo Gallery
513: Photo Gallery
514: Your Account
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Community Forums
522: Photo Gallery
523: Downloads
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: CPGlang
531: Your Account
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: CPGlang
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Home
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Home
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Community Forums
554: Downloads
555: Home
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Downloads
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Home
567: Community Forums
568: News
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: Home
574: Downloads
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Photo Gallery
579: Downloads
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Photo Gallery
585: Community Forums
586: Downloads
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Downloads
592: Photo Gallery
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Your Account
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Statistics
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: News
606: Home
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Your Account
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Community Forums
619: Member Screenshots
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Photo Gallery
625: Community Forums
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Downloads
633: Statistics
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Photo Gallery
642: Home
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Home
646: Community Forums
647: CPGlang
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Home
651: CPGlang
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Statistics
662: Member Screenshots
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: CPGlang
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Home
679: Home
680: Home
681: Home
682: Photo Gallery
683: Photo Gallery
684: Photo Gallery
685: CPGlang
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Home
689: Home
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Downloads
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Home
697: Photo Gallery
698: Downloads
699: Photo Gallery
700: Downloads
701: CPGlang
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Home
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Home
709: Community Forums
710: Member Screenshots
711: Home
712: Home
713: Community Forums
714: Home
715: Photo Gallery
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Home
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: CPGlang
724: Photo Gallery
725: Community Forums
726: Photo Gallery
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Photo Gallery
730: Community Forums
731: News
732: Photo Gallery
733: Photo Gallery
734: Community Forums
735: Home
736: Photo Gallery
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Photo Gallery
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Downloads
750: Community Forums
751: Home
752: Community Forums
753: Home
754: Photo Gallery
755: Home
756: Photo Gallery
757: Community Forums
758: Home
759: Home
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Photo Gallery
763: Downloads
764: Community Forums
765: Photo Gallery
766: Downloads
767: Community Forums
768: Community Forums
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Photo Gallery
772: Home
773: Community Forums
774: Downloads
775: Home
776: Community Forums
777: News Archive
778: Community Forums
779: Photo Gallery
780: Community Forums
781: Downloads
782: Community Forums
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Home
786: Photo Gallery
787: CPGlang
788: Community Forums
789: Downloads
790: Community Forums
791: Photo Gallery
792: Community Forums
793: Home
794: Photo Gallery
795: Community Forums
796: Community Forums
797: Community Forums
798: Downloads
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Photo Gallery
802: Community Forums
803: Downloads
804: Photo Gallery
805: Community Forums
806: Community Forums
807: Photo Gallery
808: Photo Gallery
809: Community Forums
810: Photo Gallery
811: Community Forums
812: Downloads
813: Community Forums
814: Community Forums
815: Downloads
816: Photo Gallery
817: Your Account
818: Community Forums
819: Your Account
820: Community Forums
821: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Canuck Armor
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:15 am
Post subject: Canuck Armor

As a Canadian I'm confused as to why our governemnt thought it prudent to purchase the Leo Tank as opposed to the M1. If the Australians got such a good deal then why didn't our brothers across the border cut us the same slack?

I know we have an existing history with the Leopard, but when you consider the cost of having that armor shipped back to Canada and the logistics of spare parts wouldn't the price difference per unit be closer?

Also, by having the same system as the Americans, wouldn't the cost of ammunition and transportation of the original units and spare parts be considerably less than a Transoceanic supply "line"?

Did our government somehow decide that the Leo was far more capable in the Canadian Tundra than the M1?

I mean we dropped our FN's for the C+ versions of the M16, so why wouldn't we do the same for armor?
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:58 am
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Blair,
Have you ever wondered why there are more users of the Leopard II than the M1 series ?? Until Austrailia got the M1 the only foreign users were Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. Same thing applies to automobiles. Unless the buyer has some incentive to puchase from a particular maker, they usually go with what best suits their needs and within their budget. Budget usually winning out. In my personal opinion for what it's worth, I believe the M1 would have been exported in greater numbers if it had a diesel engine.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:37 am
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Aren't the Canadian tanks coming from excess stocks of NATO allies? If so it may have been a very sweet deal. I agree that there may be reluctance to go to a vehicle with a turbine instead of diesel when you won't have enough units to justify the extra training and support structure.

But I would not discount the 'We want to prove we are not subserviant to the U.S. in our procurement choices' line of thought either

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

I think I would agree with Joe D - I suspect support costs (ie fuel) for the M1 Abrams' turbine engine may have been too much for the Canadian army. A diesel is much cheaper...

Otherwise the US can probably offer just as sweet a deal, if not better, on used Abrams than anyone can on used Leopard 2s... In fact, US foreign military sales and excess defense article transfers usually have a big advantage in terms with the extremely large support & spare parts packages that come with them...

Abrams would also have the advantage of coming with some of the neater whizzbang tech like FBCB2 that wont come with Leos... Thats a big reason why the Australians bought Abrams IMO... But then again the Australians probably see a bigger requirement to possibly fight alongside the US Army in the future than the Canadian army does...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

- Neil_Baumgardner
I think I would agree with Joe D - I suspect support costs (ie fuel) for the M1 Abrams' turbine engine may have been too much for the Canadian army. A diesel is much cheaper...

Otherwise the US can probably offer just as sweet a deal, if not better, on used Abrams than anyone can on used Leopard 2s... In fact, US foreign military sales and excess defense article transfers usually have a big advantage in terms with the extremely large support & spare parts packages that come with them...


I agree about support costs but also I wonder how many non DU armor M1s there are available for FMS? Wasn't that a requirement for Australia? I could see that being a requirement (or at least a desire to keep down fringe media stories)


Abrams would also have the advantage of coming with some of the neater whizzbang tech like FBCB2 that wont come with Leos... Thats a big reason why the Australians bought Abrams IMO... But then again the Australians probably see a bigger requirement to possibly fight alongside the US Army in the future than the Canadian army does...

Neil


The Canadians won't be fighting alongside the U.S.?? Are you hinting that we need to watch out for leopards rolling out of Saskatchewan and Manitoba into Montana & North Dakota??? Shocked Smile

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Nah, I'm just hinting that Australia appears to see itself as a coalition partner for the US for almost whereever it goes. Australian strategy is undergoing a change from the post-Vietnam focus on continental defense to expeditionary operations alongside or in cooperation with the US. The ability to fight alongside the US is a big reason why they are mechanizing their forces and they're in Iraq today... And interoperability drives requirements for equipment...

For better or worse, Canada does not see the same purpose or have the same objectives for its military. Its focus has and is on peacekeeping operations... Warfighting (especially alongside the US) tends not to be a primary objective, although the current CDS has decried that somewhat...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Hi Folks!

I agree with the 'cost of support' idea but I think there maybe another issue that was also factored in. The Leo 2s are surplus and available now.

From what I am seeing, there are not a lot of surplus Abrams waiting for someone to buy or rent. The Army is transfering rebuild Abrams to the USMC to replace high mileage vehicles that need to be overhauled.

It sounds like the Canadians want the first batch in time for their next rotation. That means delays only for training and minor upgrades.

The news here at Ft. Bliss is the FCS test BCT is facing delays in receiving Abrams and Bradleys because there are none available due to overhaul/rebuild schedule and funding crunch.

My guess is there are at least three reasons to go with that group of Leos. The Leo 2s are cheaper to use, a group of vehicles that have not been ran into the ground are available and factory space for upgrading is available to support the Canadain time line for deployment and training.

You can also add to the above the fact that almost everytime a group of international AFV experts rank the worlds MBTs, the Leo 2 is rated number one and the Abrams as second best. As a retired member of the US military, that fact is hard to take, but it is a fact.
My pocket full of pennies.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Roy,
As an M1 Tanker (Former unfortunately) I hate to admit it but I agree with you. One tank that I think does not get enough recognition is the UK's Challenger II. I spent about 5 hours with a British Master Gunner in the Udari Desert in early 2003 getting a full tour and an honest ( I believe ) Pro's and Con's of the tank. I was very impressed. Some things made so much more sense in maintenance, reliability and simplicity. They also seem to have the APU problem well covered, something we have yet to fix.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Blair,

Being an ex-Canadian Leopard commander I am still very much in contact with Armoured Corps members who are in the know about the Leopard 2 purchase.

The Abrams was looked at and considered to replace the Leopard C2. The deal that was struck with the Dutch and the Germans at Kraus-Maffei was far better than anything as far as cost, availablility, and long term servicing the US could offer for the Abrams. The deal includes not only the tanks, but state of the art upgrades, and parts, training, and extras for five years.

All of the tanks purchased will be upgraded to the Leopard 2A6 version as I previously had posted. The 2A5/2A6 has already been tested by the Germans for further upgrades such as:

-IFF Identification Friend/Foe system
-Europower pack to increase the 1500 hp to 1800 hp and reduce fuel consumption...this will make the Leopard 2 the most powerful tank in the world.
-active defence systems to defeat both RPG and guided weapons

The LKE II DM 53 120 mm round used by the Germans in the Leopard 2A6 can penetrate double reactive armour up to 4000 meters....this is without the use of a DU penetrator.

Ammunition transport is not an issue. All of the Leopard C1 and C2 ammunition was made in Quebec. This has been done for years. It will be easy for them to convert to producing 120 mm ammunition....after the technology is passed from the Germans to the Canadian company. The 120 mm is also capable of firing US made rounds also so more ammunition can be bought from them....no problems that I can see.

You also have to see the bigger picture too. Canada is buying the Leopard 2 not only as its new main battle tank but every heavy armoured support AFV will also be based on the Leopard 2 chassis.

-Leopard 2 Buffel ARV
-Armoured Engineer Vehicle...likely the Kodiak AEV-3
-Leguan or PSB-2 AVLB

This is very very smart for logistics, common parts, and training.

Not even the US forces can boast that. They are spread out with different vehicles for different uses. They have to train techs, crews, and maintainers on multiple vehicles.....M1A1, M1A2, M88A2, M104 Wolverine AVLB, M1 Panther 2, M60 AVLB, M9 ACE....and they don't even have an AEV except for the Assault Breacher Vehicle that will enter service in 2007 with the USMC.

You cannot compare the purchase of rifles to the purchase of tanks. But if you want to...the Canadian C7 is produced in Canada by Diemaco/Colt Canada. The C7 was based on the US M16A2 but had many improvements. The C7/C8 is now produced in Canada for the Canadian Forces, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, and British SAS.

The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps Master Instructors made the recommendation to their chain of command and on to the government that the Leopard 2 was the better tank overall when compared to the Abrams as far as cost, future upgrades, armour protection, and user friendliness. The US could not match all of this with any deal they offered.

Neil, I have to disagree that the Canadian Forces are focused on Peacekeeping operations now or in the future. Things have changed since 9-11. Canadian Forces primary mandate has always been to maintain an overall combat capability and the "peacekeeping/peacemaking" operations are just a testament to how flexible the forces can be to be able to go into a foreign nation and be neutral yet tough and not bring its political agenda.

Why does any nation that will "fight" alongside the US have to have the same equipment? The British don't have a bit of US equipment yet they did just fine in both Gulf wars. The chances of Canada deploying to another mission on foreign soil and "fighting" along side another Leopard 2 user nation are far greater than with the Abrams. The Danish have some of their Leopard 2A5DKs on standby for Afghanistan.

Look at the UNPROFOR, IFOR, SFOR, and KFOR missions and the use of both the Leopard 1 and Leopard 2:

UNPROFOR-Danish Leopard 1A5DK, Canadian Badger AEV
IFOR- Canadian Leopard C1, Danish Leopard 1A5DK, Italian Leopard 1A5IT, Dutch Leopard 2A4
SFOR- Danish Leopard 1DK, Italian Leopard 1A5IT, Dutch Leopard 2A5
KFOR- German Leopard 2A5, German Leopard 2A4, Canadian Leopard C1, Danish Leopard 1A5DK-1, Belgium Leopard 1A5BE, Norway Leopard 1 Bergepanzer, Norway Leopard 1 AEV, Norway Leopard 1 Leguan AVLB, Italian Leopard 1A5IT

Those are just off the top of my head there may be more users...only the US used the Abrams in the Balkans.

With the purchase of the four C-17 Globemaster aircraft Canada will be able to transport its new tanks anywhere in the world...no reliance on the US for this anymore.

The German loaned Leopard 2A6Ms will be in Afghanistan for the fall 2007 rotation. The first Canadian modified Leopard 2A6Ms will go to Afghanistan and replace the German loaned tanks in 2008.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

- Jason_Bobrowich
Blair,

Neil, I have to disagree that the Canadian Forces are focused on Peacekeeping operations now or in the future. Things have changed since 9-11. Canadian Forces primary mandate has always been to maintain an overall combat capability and the "peacekeeping/peacemaking" operations are just a testament to how flexible the forces can be to be able to go into a foreign nation and be neutral yet tough and not bring its political agenda.

Why does any nation that will "fight" alongside the US have to have the same equipment? The British don't have a bit of US equipment yet they did just fine in both Gulf wars. The chances of Canada deploying to another mission on foreign soil and "fighting" along side another Leopard 2 user nation are far greater than with the Abrams. The Danish have some of their Leopard 2A5DKs on standby for Afghanistan.


Yeah, I figured I'd get in trouble for that somehow Wink However, General Hillier, even post 9/11, has commented on how the Canadian military has been too focused on peacekeeping rather than warfighting. But I will grant that has started to change...

The missions you mentioned are all very good examples of peacekeeping missions... Look at ODS, OIF, you'll see a different mix of systems - and no Leopards...

Of course not every nation needs to have the same platforms, but rather what comes inside - battle management, comms, etc - is what counts in terms of interoperability. Its easier to get those systems if you get Abrams rather than something else. Although its not impossible to get them otherwise of course - the Brits got some, but not a lot, of BFT systems during the initial combat ops of OIF. But even then, look at the different roles & responsibilities that were taken during those initial combat ops & the drive to Baghdad...

At the very least, you have to admit there is a pretty big difference in how Australia and Canada see their future military capabilities and warfighting requirements vis-a-vi the United States. IMO, JMHO, that influences the procurements that each has made... You made an excellent point that more often than not the Canadian army will be deploying alongside Leopard users and not Abrams...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Canada wanted to send an Armoured Battlegroup to the 1991 Gulf War...it was called Operation Broadsword and would have included the 8CH in the Leopard C1....logistics proved to be the failing point of the operation....not the crews or tanks.

I think Canada has a realistic way of looking at how to maintain a new main battle tank and work side by side with NATO forces over the next couple of decades...the Germans plan to keep the Leopard 2A6, with further upgrades for the next 25+ years.

The Canadian, US, British, Dutch, and Australian forces are all fighting side by side in Afghanistan without integrated battlefield management systems...and doing a fine job too.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for US, Australian, Egyptian, Kuwaiti, and Saudi Arabian Abrams to go into battle along side each other compared to the Leopard 2 user forces.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

Jason, some very good points. But I think we're talking about a different kind of "fighting." The United States, Australia and UK seek to have a "full-spectrum" military capability - from peacekeeping through low-intensity conflict, small-scale contingencies and counter-insurgency all the way right up to large-scale conventional warfare - and are making procurement decisions that support that objective. Not many countries aspire to have that complete range of capabilities, and you may not need integrated battle management systems for the lower end.

In terms of "going into battle," will we ever see a record of engagement of Leopard 2 tanks against other tanks? Maybe... The Abrams & Challenger 2 already do... And I dont think thats so much a statement upon the tanks, but rather on the users and their foreign policy and military choices & objectives... Not to say that Leopard 2s arent useful for other situations & missions, but they were designed primarily to fight other tanks...

But as I said, Hillier and others would apparently like to see a more balanced mix in the Canadian military - and the Leopard 2s are part of that...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!
You can also add to the above the fact that almost everytime a group of international AFV experts rank the worlds MBTs, the Leo 2 is rated number one and the Abrams as second best. As a retired member of the US military, that fact is hard to take, but it is a fact.
My pocket full of pennies.
Sgt, Scouts Out!


Thats only if you measure the tanks by very traditional, static measures such as armor, firepower (gun), and mobility... But IMO, those arent even competitive discriminators anymore. Tank development has been stagnant for almost a decade now... They all have sufficient levels of protection for most warfighting requirements, they all have 120mm guns with similar ranges, ammo & firepower, and they all have at least enough mobility for modern requirements.

Again, IMO, its what inside that counts as the real discriminators right now- O&S costs for turbine engines not withstanding. Look at the engagement ranges in Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom - what really set the US and its allies aside was the capability to detect, acquire and destroy enemy armor at greater ranges. In most cases in the initial combat ops of OIF, Iraqi armor (the little that there was that did fight) didnt even know where it was being engaged from, let alone able to fire upon their opponents. For those engagements, what counted was blue force tracking, radios & optics... In most cases, US armor protection wasnt even tested by Iraqi tank rounds...

Similarly, what were the real discriminators in 1940? Was it armor, firepower and mobility? Those factors appear to have mattered relatively little for the French S35s and Char Bs vs the German Pz Is and IIs, and precious few IIIs and IVs. Rather, what mattered was doctrine, maneuver and the ability to coordinate forces - by which radios (which the French tanks lacked) that were a critical element. Certainly, the static measures mattered more in 1944 - but I dont think the Leopard 2 has a Tiger-scale of advantages over the Abrams... And they all had radios at that point to level that part of the playing field...

Frankly, if you intend to fight full-up large-scale warfare - against other tanks - its what comes _with_ the Abrams tank that matters a lot more than the "advantages" that the Leopard 2 has... But thats just MHO...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

I personally wouldn't say that Australia is going for a "full-spectrum" military capability. They only bought 59 M1A1 AIMs and only 45 or so of them will be in Regimental service the rest are for training. They still use M113s as APCs, it can't keep up with the Abrams...are they going to buy Bradleys too?

I don't see a rush to get Aussie tankers to Iraq in loaned or leased or purchased Abrams....where's the heavy support for the objective? There is about 850 total Australians involved in the operation in Iraq. This includes Navy, Airforce, and HQ related members. They have one Squadron (strength of 90 men) of ASLAVs to provide diplomatic escorts in Baghdad. They have about 700 troops in Afghanistan and will be adding 300 more SF troops. A commitment yes, but not even as much as Canada has in Afghanistan(2500 deployed)...and Canada already has tanks over there.

I don't think full up large scale warfare has been fought for a very long time. It is great that the Coalition and allies had victory in the Gulf and you are right that no tanks there were really tested against equal tanks or well trained crews. But the lessons learned in the Gulf wars is why Germany developed the Leopard 2A6 so it could engage and destroy the enemy at ranges up to 4000 metres. Only the Israelis have fought large scale tank against tank battles....they have learned lessons the hard way.

There are new rounds under development by the Israelis (120 MM APAM) which will give the Leopard 2 a huge cabability to engage any type of threat. Both the US and Germans already use a 120 mm HEAT Multi-purpose rounds to engage targets that aren't tanks.

Foreign policy and military choices & objectives...ah yes, where are those weapons of mass destruction again? Actually, I don't really care about the foreign policy because when the bullets start flying it's your tank crew that matters and you do your job.

Were the Abrams and Challenger not primarily designed to fight and destroy other tanks? They were designed during the cold war to battle the Warsaw Pact tank hoards not to fight against non uniformed insurgents. All tanks crews' primary threat is enemy tanks...the rest is just gravy.

The Canadian Forces with the Leopard 2A6 will be fully capable of any operation also. However, Canada is limited to Combat Team Battlegroup deployments simply because of the size of the combat forces....the same as Australia with the Abrams.

To me, I think the M1A1 Abrams and the Leopard 2A6 are pretty much equal. Yup, the Abrams has fully integrated battlefield managements systems but that doesn't mean that the Leopards can't be upgraded. All the systems in the world don't help when an enemy is using IEDs and simple RPG-7 to disable the Abrams.

Maybe we will see full up large scale warfare when Iran is invaded or how about North Korea as an opponent?
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:27 am
Post subject: Re: Canuck Armor

I agree with many of your points Jason...

As for Australia, they have LAVs (like Canada) in addition to the M113s and are currently looking at buying self-propelled howitzers... IMO, you dont buy SPHs unless you're planning to be able to fight on the high end of conflict.

I certainly didnt want to turn this into a discussion of the politics and merits of Iraq, never mind Iran or North Korea... But I would observe that, regardless of the merits of any particular conflict, certain countries are making the investments to be able to fight on the high end of conflict.

Requirements for conducting different kinds of military operations drive procurement decisions... As you pointed out, its more likely that the Canadian army will be operating Leo 2s alongside other Leo 2s in operations like Afghanistan rather than alongside Abrams or Challenger in large-scale military operations (which admittedly may be few & far between). In operations like Afghanistan, or even Iraq right now, where protection against IEDs and RPGs is what counts most, there probably is very little difference...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum