±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 783
Total: 783
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Downloads
05: Member Screenshots
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Downloads
10: Home
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Tell a Friend
22: Member Screenshots
23: Community Forums
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Photo Gallery
40: Downloads
41: Photo Gallery
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: CPGlang
51: Home
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Home
56: Member Screenshots
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Downloads
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Your Account
75: Home
76: Statistics
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Your Account
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Downloads
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Statistics
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Downloads
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Downloads
105: Community Forums
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: CPGlang
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Member Screenshots
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Member Screenshots
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Downloads
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Photo Gallery
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: News
155: Community Forums
156: Downloads
157: Home
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Home
169: Your Account
170: Community Forums
171: Downloads
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Downloads
180: Community Forums
181: Downloads
182: Community Forums
183: Downloads
184: Community Forums
185: Downloads
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: News Archive
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: News
194: Statistics
195: CPGlang
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: News
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Downloads
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: CPGlang
224: Downloads
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: News
250: Community Forums
251: CPGlang
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: Photo Gallery
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Downloads
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Home
274: Home
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: CPGlang
291: Community Forums
292: Statistics
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Your Account
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: CPGlang
304: Community Forums
305: Your Account
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Statistics
313: Photo Gallery
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: CPGlang
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: CPGlang
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Photo Gallery
329: Photo Gallery
330: Member Screenshots
331: Home
332: News
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: CPGlang
336: Community Forums
337: Member Screenshots
338: Photo Gallery
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Home
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: CPGlang
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Your Account
356: Community Forums
357: Photo Gallery
358: Photo Gallery
359: Home
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Home
379: Home
380: Downloads
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Downloads
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Home
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Downloads
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: News
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Photo Gallery
420: Statistics
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Downloads
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Home
434: Photo Gallery
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Search
438: Photo Gallery
439: Photo Gallery
440: Downloads
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Home
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Your Account
462: Community Forums
463: Downloads
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Home
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Photo Gallery
487: Member Screenshots
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Downloads
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Member Screenshots
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Downloads
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Your Account
511: Photo Gallery
512: Downloads
513: Your Account
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Photo Gallery
519: Photo Gallery
520: Photo Gallery
521: Downloads
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Home
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Downloads
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Photo Gallery
558: Home
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Statistics
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Your Account
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Home
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Home
593: Community Forums
594: CPGlang
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Home
599: Downloads
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Home
604: Search
605: Community Forums
606: Member Screenshots
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Downloads
610: Home
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums
624: Home
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Photo Gallery
632: Home
633: Downloads
634: Photo Gallery
635: Photo Gallery
636: Community Forums
637: Your Account
638: Community Forums
639: Your Account
640: Downloads
641: Downloads
642: Photo Gallery
643: Photo Gallery
644: Member Screenshots
645: Home
646: Home
647: Home
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Downloads
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Downloads
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Home
659: Photo Gallery
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: Photo Gallery
665: Community Forums
666: CPGlang
667: Community Forums
668: Member Screenshots
669: Photo Gallery
670: Downloads
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Photo Gallery
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Photo Gallery
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Downloads
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Photo Gallery
703: Photo Gallery
704: News
705: Community Forums
706: Photo Gallery
707: Community Forums
708: Statistics
709: News Archive
710: Downloads
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Member Screenshots
714: Community Forums
715: Your Account
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Photo Gallery
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: CPGlang
734: Downloads
735: Downloads
736: Downloads
737: Home
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Photo Gallery
744: Community Forums
745: Home
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Your Account
752: Community Forums
753: Home
754: Member Screenshots
755: Community Forums
756: Downloads
757: Photo Gallery
758: Community Forums
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: News Archive
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: Community Forums
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Community Forums
775: Photo Gallery
776: Downloads
777: News
778: Photo Gallery
779: Community Forums
780: Community Forums
781: Photo Gallery
782: Downloads
783: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:45 pm
Post subject: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Folks!

I was looking through the Webshots Dot Com site for a pair of colored photos of that US M4A1 that was recovered off Omaha beach.

While using the site SEARCH function, I ran acossed this vehicle. Have no idea who took or posted these photo to the site.
Warning: pictures are a bit large which is why I didn't post them to this DG, sorry Folks.

i41.photobucket.com/al...murm-1.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urRRcl.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urmayb.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urFLlo.jpg

Not sure, but I think it is at Samur.

Niel has posted pictures of a M4A2 76 mm DD with the HVSS (E8) suspension. But a M4A1 76 mm with VVSS is a new version of the DD to me.

Speaking of Webshots Dot Com, while using the SEARCH function using "France" and "Tank", I found 24 pages with 1,669 photos. Now there are some that have nothing to do with tanks in France, but there are a lot of military related pictures. There is about five pages of a photos titled "Barbarossa" which has a lot of Eastern Front WWII black and white shots along with a few WW II photos from all over the globe.

If you have some time to kill, check it out.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Don't try searching with "DD" and "Tank". You get a large number of pictures of someone's friend called DD along with a few destoryer (as in ship) pictures.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is at Saumur, it's PTIF#114 from my book on Preserved Tanks in France:



In the book I wrote:

"This is a Mark IIAY, modified from an M4A1 (76)W. It is in poor condition and is missing its flotation screen, muzzle brake and both propellers."

I don't have any other information on it, but it's certainly an unusual beast.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

THere has GOT to be an interesting story on this fellow! Clearly a DD hull, but what's that 76mm turret doing on it?

It defies "conventional wisdom" on the DD tanks and the 76mm tanks. It would be interesting to know more about the sinking and the exact date.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Though unusual, it is of course not entirely unique:


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is a very old picture of the M4A2 HVSS 76mm DD test tank at Aberdeen. The picture was taken on the old 'Mile of Tanks' but it has been sitting in the Belair street storage yard for at least 8 years but probably more than 10 years. Neil has much more recent pictures that were taken during one the tour I led of the Belair Street yard during AMPs this spring (The first time enthusiasts have been able to get into that yard in years) There are probably a bunch of other pictures of it from that tour. It was one of the most popular items in that yard (But everything in the yard was popular that day!)

The tanks was tested for possible use during the Invasion of Japan. I suspect that if it was deployed it would have been deployed in the M4A3 version and that the M4A2 was used for test purposes because it was more available without impacting issue of the more desired A3 version

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The picture is pretty old - I probably took it in the 1982 or 1983.

OT, while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:

www.strijdbewijs.nl/ta...araeng.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Trevor! Hi Folks!

- TrevorLarkum

.....while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:


Very interesting link! Thank You Trevor!

Those DD Tank photos by Robert Capa has puzzled me for years. Some time back I started collecting photos and information about the DD system with the hope that someday I would be able to build a 1/35 scale model of one with the screen up. So far, it's still in the planning stages.

Those "chimney" or "rectangle shapes" are a problem.

By chimney, I wonder if the writer MIGHT have been talking about the rerouted air flow at the the rear of the tank. The M4A1's, and M4A4's had an air exhaust under the upper rear hull which over hung the lower rear hull. On the DD's this exhaust was below the bottom edge of the screens. There was something like the lower section of a wading truck that redirected the airflow from it normal downward flow and diverted it upward and into the inside rear area of the of the screen.

Now for Robert Capa's photo. I don't think those "rectangle shapes" are on those tanks. I think they are something that is on the beach on the other side of those DD's.

Look at the left DD. The one that is sideways. I think we are looking at an opened splite type of TC hatch. If that rectangle is on that tank, it's mounted on the rear of the turret and not the hull. It's front edge is in line with the back edge of the TC hatch.

Look at the right DD. The one were we can see the props. Again we can see an open splite type of TC hatch. In that photo, the rectangle is to the left of the TC's hatch and centered on the vehicle.

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets. The TC stood on a metal platform that was welded onto the top rear edge of the bustle area and behind the TC hatch area. He had a pipe to hold onto with one hand and the tiller for the props with his other hand. A LARGE "chimney" that would be mounted on the center rear area of the turrret's bustle would be a massive blind spot for the TC when he was standing outside the turret and driving the tank.

For a long time I wonder what those things where that look like they are mounted on those two DD's. After collecting a folder full of limited info on DD's and the screen system, I think that those things are on the other side of those two vehicles and are NOT mounted on them.

If I understand the story correctly, the author is Dutch. The crews he interviewed would be Americans (?). Maybe the term chimney is something that got lost in the translatation to Dutch and then back to English?

A note about the number 10 on that tank with the wading trunks.
That vehicle should be a bulldozer tank. The 10 stands for landing craft gap number 10. That dozer was detailed to the Special Engineer Task Force (SETF) Gap Team number 10. It's mission was to support the Navy engineers below the water line as they opened up their area of the gap. After that, the dozers were to support the Army engineers as they cleared the gap above the water line. After the gaps were opened up, most of the bulldozers would return to control of their assigned tank battalions.

Gap 10 was planned for the right (looking at the beach from the sea) edge of Easy Red Beach. Robert Capa's photos were taken in the area between Easy-Red and Fox-Green. That would be at the left (again, looking at the beach from the sea) end of Easy-Red and in the area of Gap 15. About 1,400 yards left of where it should have landed.

My 2 cents on DD chimneys and a little info on what I have learned about D-Day bulldozer tanks.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
The info about the bulldozer tanks comes from "Spearheading D-Day, American Special Units in Normandy" by Jonathan Gawne, Histoire @ Collections, Paris, 1998, ISBN 2 908 182 793. For anyone who is interested in the stories of D-Day, that book is HIGHLY Recommended by Stephen "Cookie" Sewell in a review he wrote for Armor Magazine in the January-February 2000 issue, page 51. It corrects and explains a number of facts that Cornelius Ryan got wrong in his book, "The Longest Day".

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The Dutch poster is quoting from the novel "Hell Has No Heroes", originally published as "Barbara" ca. 1951. A great read on an American tank crew in Europe by Wayne Robinson who actually served with the 743rd Tank Battalion. A number of incidents in the novel parallel those in the 743rd's published history. While Mr. Robinson DID actually serve with the tank battalion, I have found a number of minor "flaws" in his work. In the novel, Robinson implies tyhat Barbara is a welded hull tank. He refers to the "new" turtle-hulled tanks arriving later. Any DD nut knows that the US DD's were based on M4A1s with cast upper hulls. I am also wondering if his memory confused the "chimneys" or wading stacks to us, of the deep-water equipped Shermans with the DD tanks.

Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.

Gary B
Back to top
View user's profile
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Gary! Hi Folks!

- binder001

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.
Gary B


I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

What we are seeing on the US DD's is the modified idlers were the drive plate has been removed and is exposing the mounting ring with the holes for the bolts.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'll have to check my copy of Barbara this weekend but I thought it came out much later than 1951. I picked up the paperbackHell Has No Heroes a long while back at a used book sale. I noticed that it had originally been titled Barbara but didn't think much about it. Then at a junk shop/antique store (more like a barn) on a side road outside Gettysburg there was a table of books and scanning the titles I saw Barbara on an old hardback. I picked it up and sure enough it was 'the one'. I'm pretty sure it has the author's bio in it. I'll pull it out and check teh copyright this weekend but I think it is late 50s or maybe even 1961 (That date sticks in my head)

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- Roy_A_Lingle

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets.


I think you may be right with your general conclusions, but it may be that this is a possible solution, that a simple 'chimney' was built up around the TC's position, for protection or some other reason. It fascinates me that after all this time there are still some things to learn and mysteries to resolve.


- binder001
Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used


If I can find any more, close-up, pictures I'll post them here.


- tanker2010
I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

You are quite right - I misspoke (miswrote?). The US tanks lack the toothed sprocket drive ring. The idlers don't look like Sherman sprockets with the toothed ring removed. There is still a track contact surface, not unlike an idler wheel. I have not seen that on any Sherman sprocket that I have run across, hence my reference to a "modified idler". The sprockets support the track with the teeth on the end connectors, but a VVSS or HVSS idler contacts the track block surface. The DD idler SEEMS to combine the idler wheel with a mounting ring or such surface that allowed the use of the toothed sprocket.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Presumably the idea was just to give the idler sufficient extra grip so it could power the screws without slipping.

Here's a view on the one at Courseulles (PTIF#9):


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- TrevorLarkum


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.


I understand that, that's not what I'm saying. I think it's just something they threw together at Samur.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum