±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 258
Total: 258
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Member Screenshots
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: News Archive
19: Photo Gallery
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Photo Gallery
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Photo Gallery
52: Photo Gallery
53: Photo Gallery
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: News Archive
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: CPGlang
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Home
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Photo Gallery
87: Photo Gallery
88: Photo Gallery
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Photo Gallery
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Downloads
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Photo Gallery
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Photo Gallery
118: Photo Gallery
119: Photo Gallery
120: Home
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Your Account
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Photo Gallery
132: News Archive
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Photo Gallery
139: Photo Gallery
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: News Archive
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Home
153: Photo Gallery
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Statistics
157: Member Screenshots
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: CPGlang
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Photo Gallery
166: Community Forums
167: CPGlang
168: Photo Gallery
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Downloads
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: News Archive
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Photo Gallery
224: Home
225: Home
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Your Account
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Photo Gallery
236: CPGlang
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Statistics
246: Your Account
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Photo Gallery
256: Photo Gallery
257: Downloads
258: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

The Panzer IV no. 14 (UniqueID 169) on that page is the tank we're talking about:

preservedtanks.com/Typ...p;Select=1

I took the identification of 'Ausf H' from Wheels and Tracks magazine, where it's covered in issue 30. However I should not have taken it at face value as I can see clearly now it is an Ausf J. I will make a correction on the website and in future editions of the Preserved German Tanks book.

- Doug_Kibbey
Can you give an angle of the rear that your looking specifically for (and example would be helpful)? I have 2-3 eye level views from various angles, or do you need a "top down view" of rear deck? Might not have that, but maybe something close.


The 'standard' Pz IV look, e.g. for Ausf G, H, etc. is a large horizontal exhaust silencer (muffler) on the rear plate, with a smaller silencer to the left of it:



A distinctive feature of the Ausf J was that this was removed, see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Saumur:

preservedtanks.com/Det...PhotoID=89

In very late production models, a completely new exhaust system was used with two vertical silencers (similar to the Panther or Tiger), see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Latrun:

preservedtanks.com/Det...otoID=1176

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

FINALLY, page two...I can post pics again. Laughing

Here is the bit you're looking for. Obvious bracketry for the silencer, but the bit itself is no longer present (I notice that the example at Saumur you cited lacks these brackets). Rough area on hull behind bracketry suggest to me that one was mounted at one time, mufflers are notorious for rusting out and quickly becoming unpresentable, besides, why would brackets be mounted if there was no intention to use them if simplification in manufacture was the point) Should come as no surprise, lots of bits are missing (what, for example, went in the tank that the curvy pieces to right supported? Whole tank is gone).

Also, though mismatched, the turret lacked the rear pistol ports I've seen in some versions. Also, closer inspection of the interior main gun pics seem to me to be lacking in something where gun enters mantlet. What is it that ain't there? (the diameter is not filling the mantlet opening)



*Edit to add....

Here's a interesting finding from a previous trip. Begs the question, is the reference to hull, turret, or both? Were some J's produced with silencers?....And when did fighting in Moldavia end?



...and since it's referenced on the plate, here's the engine, with one cam cover thoughtfully missing so we can appreciate the gear-driven SOHC (presumably with a gear train somewhat simpler than a Ford 427 "cammer").



Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:23 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Now that we're in a thread with piccie rights again, what's the significance of the number on this housing? And why, apart from needing to put together bits-and-pieces, would the track have solid and hollow center guides?



...and just for the heck of it, I didn't see any signs of the TC's azimuthal indicator doo-hickey. Probably lost to the parts bin of history...or wherever the muffler went.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

I agree it looks like there's a bracket for the auxiliary engine silencer, however it's a different shape to the standard bracket, plus I don't see any connection/pipework going to it, which you can see for the missing main silencer next to it (it sat in the 'curvy pieces'). I'm still thinking it was an Ausf J without a silencer, and some other item has been stowed in its place.

For identification I haven't considered the turret at all, since we know it was added later. Regarding a gap around the gun going into the mantlet - could it just indicate the gun hasn't fully returned from the recoil position (i.e. it's jammed?). Regarding the hollow track centre guides my guess would be the same as reducing the number of return rollers - just another way of reducing the amount of metal required.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
BruceClark
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Hi,
I agree that this is a Late J hull- the extended hull sides for tow hooks and the 3 return rollers are the clues. The straps on the rear do look like they are intended for the auxilliary muffler but there is no port in the rear hull- this should be visible or plated over. It also has late cast idler and late lower tow hook though this latter may have been added post war.

The casting number on the final drive housing is just that- a casting number referenced in some drawing from long ago. The mixture of track types is fairly common in late war vehicles and especially museum exhibits- you use the track at hand to outfit the exhibit. The hollow guide horns are earlier than the solid, by the way. Not sure whether this was to simplify the manufacturing process- as it seems counter intuitive to use more metal later in the war- or whether there was an issue with the hollow guidehorns collecting mud, ice, snow, etc.

The turret is another issue indeed....

Hope that helps
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Good stuff, guys. It seems fighting in Moldavia was going on well into 1944, see: "Jassy–Kishinev Offensive (August 1944)"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...1Dec44.jpg

I'll try to get some more pics up later, including main gun/battery and coax/bow MG shrouds from inside. Might be original, but damaged from careless visitors pulling or standing on (museum visitors do some strange things to artifacts, sometimes). They had a bent and squirrely look to them, especially the bow gun (which is more vulnerable to abuse by visitors).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
BruceClark
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce


Bruce,
Thanks, that's helpful! The tank might have been removed or fallen off when, as I notice in some of my closeups, the bracket welds have broken away from the hull at right bottom (I think it was).

D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Yes - great picture, Bruce, that clears up any confusion.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here's the likely explanation for why the tank is no longer fitted (whatever it was for....it wasn't apparently deemed worthy of repair)

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

- Dontos
Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don


Don,
Great pics, whether yours or Garry's. Not surprisingly, some aspects of the Bucharest vehicle are in better condition (forward drivers' and RO compartments, drive system up there)...the results of not having the weather exposure of the APG vehicle...and other aspects are just...incomplete (no turret basket, no internal stowage bins to speak of, etc.). APG vehicle is more original and complete, but exposure took it's toll. Interior of Bucharest vehicle was better protected (what there is of it), but is far less complete/original. White paint exceeds the rust, however.

Of course, you can't restore what ain't there, and that's probably not in the budget anyway. Between the old AFV Interiors file (may it remain forever in our hearts and hard drives), Garry's pics, and the Bucharest vehicle...I've gotten a new appreciation for what the inside is supposed to be like. I have to say that in many ways, it's easier to relate to later Patton-series vehicles in spatial use than U.S. vehicles of the same period (that is to say, more "modern" in scale and layout than the M4's). It's possible now to imagine what a "new" one should look like inside...and I haven't even seen the more pristine examples out there.

I was standing on the hull floor, however, and don't have any feel for what the fighting compartment height is like with turret basket under your feet.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
... I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler...


It is actually the muffler for the auxiliary engine which turned the turret and this makes it an early J at the latest, since the auxiliary engine was dropped during the J-production run.



Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Jens - I think you need to reread the discussion, as we started with that idea but decided it wasn't the case. If you're aware of that, then we'd be interested in your reasoning.

Dontos, the FK Panzer IV has exactly the muffler where we would expect it since it is a much earlier vehicle:



A great set of pictures though!

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here is better view from AFTA website



Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum