±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 1
Visitors: 699
Total: 700
Who Is Where:
 Members:
01: JWB2 > Community Forums
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: CPGlang
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Photo Gallery
19: Member Screenshots
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: CPGlang
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: News
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Your Account
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Downloads
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Photo Gallery
74: Home
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Downloads
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Member Screenshots
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: News
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: News
97: Community Forums
98: Member Screenshots
99: News
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Downloads
104: Home
105: CPGlang
106: Photo Gallery
107: Photo Gallery
108: CPGlang
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Home
119: Photo Gallery
120: Member Screenshots
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Your Account
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Photo Gallery
139: Home
140: Downloads
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: CPGlang
150: Home
151: Your Account
152: Your Account
153: Downloads
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Photo Gallery
159: Photo Gallery
160: Photo Gallery
161: Your Account
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: CPGlang
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Member Screenshots
179: Downloads
180: Photo Gallery
181: Member Screenshots
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: CPGlang
206: CPGlang
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Downloads
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Downloads
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Your Account
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Home
230: Downloads
231: CPGlang
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Photo Gallery
248: Photo Gallery
249: Home
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: CPGlang
253: Downloads
254: CPGlang
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: CPGlang
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Member Screenshots
266: Home
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Downloads
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Downloads
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: News
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Your Account
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: CPGlang
301: Community Forums
302: Photo Gallery
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: CPGlang
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Home
330: Home
331: Downloads
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: News
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Photo Gallery
345: CPGlang
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Home
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Photo Gallery
356: News
357: Downloads
358: Home
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Your Account
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Photo Gallery
370: Community Forums
371: Member Screenshots
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: CPGlang
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Photo Gallery
380: Your Account
381: CPGlang
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Downloads
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Member Screenshots
391: Community Forums
392: Photo Gallery
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: CPGlang
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Downloads
403: CPGlang
404: Photo Gallery
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Downloads
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Photo Gallery
417: Member Screenshots
418: Community Forums
419: News
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: CPGlang
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: News
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Downloads
440: Photo Gallery
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Member Screenshots
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Photo Gallery
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Downloads
460: Community Forums
461: Search
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Your Account
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Downloads
478: Your Account
479: Community Forums
480: News
481: Statistics
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Your Account
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Downloads
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Member Screenshots
511: Downloads
512: News
513: Community Forums
514: CPGlang
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: CPGlang
521: Community Forums
522: Home
523: Photo Gallery
524: Member Screenshots
525: Downloads
526: Community Forums
527: Downloads
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: CPGlang
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Downloads
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Downloads
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Home
546: CPGlang
547: CPGlang
548: News
549: Community Forums
550: Downloads
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: CPGlang
555: CPGlang
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: News
560: Photo Gallery
561: Search
562: Photo Gallery
563: Home
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: News
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Photo Gallery
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Community Forums
581: Home
582: Community Forums
583: Home
584: Home
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: CPGlang
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Your Account
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Home
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Photo Gallery
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Downloads
615: Community Forums
616: Statistics
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Home
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Downloads
634: Member Screenshots
635: Home
636: Home
637: Home
638: Photo Gallery
639: Community Forums
640: News
641: Photo Gallery
642: Community Forums
643: Photo Gallery
644: Community Forums
645: Home
646: Community Forums
647: News
648: Photo Gallery
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Member Screenshots
661: Home
662: Photo Gallery
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Photo Gallery
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Photo Gallery
677: Home
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Photo Gallery
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: CPGlang
685: Community Forums
686: Home
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Downloads
691: Home
692: Downloads
693: Downloads
694: Home
695: Downloads
696: Home
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:51 pm
Post subject: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Located at the airborne museum in Hotel Hartenstein is the following Sherman;

N51 59.257 E005 49.933
Serial 5964 (rear/right tow lug), see picture



Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno


Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:11 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?


Anthony,

I am not sure what is written in your Regimental history, but let me try to brief you on what we do know about "Argyll Roger".

Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side. Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed. The Sherman was moved to Hotel Hartenstein when the Airborne museum moved there.

In the mid-1980s we researched the question: where did "Argyll Roger" come from? Options were:
1) It was captured by the German Army in September 1944 and left behind in April 1945.
2) It was left there by an Allied unit which liberated Oosterbeek.
3) It was brought there for the making of a movie on Market Garden shortly after WW2. We know a number of tanks and vehicles were brought to Oosterbeek, but we are not sure it included a Sherman tank.
4) For some reason it was brought to Oosterbeek from the Deelen dump, a huge storage area for Commonwealth vehicles.

Option 1) was the most obvious, but we could not find any units which reported a loss of a Sherman V and leaving it there. However, your unit was among the ones which liberated Oosterbeek, and they did have a Sherman named “Argyle”. Sounds like it, doesn’t it? But this tank was not reported lost and it was a Sherman VC Firefly. It was very tempting to stick this identity to "Argyll Roger", and this is what the museum did. They explained the fact that their tank is a regular 75-mm Sherman and not a 17-pdr Firefly by the given that “guns can be easily swapped on Shermans”. However, there is no operational explanation to do so, and IF a Firefly was converted back into a 75-mm gun tank, there would be clear indications this happened. "Argyll Roger" has no signs of having ever been converted into a Firefly and/or back.
So, although this was a tempting solution to fill the gap of a missing history and have he benefit of a Regiment adopting it for restauration, repainting etc. (just like the Grizzly at Groesbeek!), the only right conclusion is that these two tanks are not the same.

Frustrating fact is the provenance of "Argyll Roger" remains an enigma to this day.

I am always willing to discuss further.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Hanno

Very interesting, well this is a true enigma then.Thank you for the possibilites with this sherman.

Cheers

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:54 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side.


Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein, courtesy of Maurice D.

Is there anyone who could tell me who or what "Argyll Roger" is or was?

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed.


Attached is a picture postcard of ca. 1962, provided by a friend, showing Argyll Roger on display at Doorwerth Castle.
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:42 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein


Here's another picture of Argyll Roger in the same location. Source: www.geldersarchief.nl, courtesy of Marco H.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum