±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 614
Total: 614
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Downloads
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: News
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Member Screenshots
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Your Account
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Member Screenshots
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Downloads
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Home
36: Downloads
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: News Archive
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Member Screenshots
53: Your Account
54: Home
55: Photo Gallery
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Downloads
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Statistics
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: CPGlang
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Downloads
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: News Archive
84: Home
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Downloads
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Downloads
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: CPGlang
106: Member Screenshots
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: CPGlang
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Statistics
123: Community Forums
124: CPGlang
125: Community Forums
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Downloads
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Downloads
144: Your Account
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: News Archive
161: Community Forums
162: Member Screenshots
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Statistics
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Downloads
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Member Screenshots
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Home
178: Downloads
179: CPGlang
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Home
190: Downloads
191: Community Forums
192: Home
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Member Screenshots
203: Your Account
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Downloads
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: CPGlang
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Downloads
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Downloads
260: Community Forums
261: Home
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Downloads
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Member Screenshots
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Downloads
282: Photo Gallery
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Community Forums
286: Downloads
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Member Screenshots
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Photo Gallery
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Home
312: Photo Gallery
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Photo Gallery
316: Home
317: Photo Gallery
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Your Account
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Downloads
328: Community Forums
329: Your Account
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Downloads
335: Community Forums
336: Member Screenshots
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: CPGlang
341: CPGlang
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Member Screenshots
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Home
368: Community Forums
369: Photo Gallery
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Home
375: Your Account
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Home
383: Photo Gallery
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Your Account
387: Downloads
388: Community Forums
389: Home
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Member Screenshots
397: Home
398: Home
399: CPGlang
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Member Screenshots
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Downloads
408: Downloads
409: Home
410: Downloads
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Downloads
419: Home
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Downloads
423: News Archive
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Downloads
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Home
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Your Account
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: CPGlang
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Photo Gallery
479: Photo Gallery
480: Home
481: CPGlang
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Photo Gallery
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Photo Gallery
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Downloads
499: Community Forums
500: Downloads
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Your Account
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Photo Gallery
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: Photo Gallery
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: News Archive
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Downloads
536: Photo Gallery
537: Photo Gallery
538: Home
539: Photo Gallery
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Photo Gallery
550: Downloads
551: Photo Gallery
552: Photo Gallery
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Your Account
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: Home
560: Your Account
561: Photo Gallery
562: Member Screenshots
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Home
569: Photo Gallery
570: Search
571: Photo Gallery
572: CPGlang
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Photo Gallery
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: News
581: Community Forums
582: Home
583: Member Screenshots
584: Your Account
585: Community Forums
586: Photo Gallery
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Photo Gallery
596: Photo Gallery
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: CPGlang
607: Community Forums
608: Your Account
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

- Roy_A_Lingle

When the developers started drawing up the Sherman tank, they were limited in how much it could weight. That limit came for the Combat Bridging Engineers M2 Treadway Pontoon bridge system.

<snip>That bridge could not have support the M-6 or T-23 heavy tanks. Notice the clearance between the treadway edges and the VVSS track block. Just a few inchs to spare on both sides. No room for a wider tank. No room for M4 with HVSS!


I'm sorry, but this sounds to me like putting the cart before the horse, or in this case the bridge before the tank... The bridge is designed to support the tank, the tank is designed to destroy infantry, fight tanks, etc, not to support the bridge. I understand this argument a little better when you're talking shipping, airlift or even rail-transport - for the first two at least you may have pretty big design constraints.

Designing the tank to fit the bridge seems a little backwards to me. Seems like if you decide you're going to have heavier tanks, you design bridges to handle said tanks - not decide you cant have heavier tanks because your current bridges cant handle them... Afterall, I would think its easier to design & build new heavier bridges than a heavier tank...


Sounds like putting the cart before the horse?
Designing the tank to fit the bridge seems a little backwards?

Yes!
If one JUMPS to the CONCLUSION that both were developed at the same time. There in lays the Catch-22. The M2 treadway bridge was developed and fielded years before anyone starting thinking about building something like the M3 Lees, little lone the Sherman. Don't forget, we where looking at the M3 Stuart with it's 37mm cannon as a main battle tank long before anyone started working on the M3 Lees. The original pontoon bridge system was more than enough for the M1,M2, and M3 family of light tanks.

The larger pontoons and sadles for the M2 treadways were designed about the same time as the Sherman because it exceed the safe rated level for that system. The larger elements were delayed do to the need for steel and rubber during the early start up period when everyone needed everything for their systems. That is why the weight had to fit the bridge system that was in service at that time. Fielding of HVSS vehicles and heavier Shermans was only possible because larger pontoon equipment was also in the works. At that point both systems were in sync.

More, I am sure later
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

- Roy_A_Lingle

I seam to remember of picture of T-23 crossing a Bailey Bridge. As so as I can find it, I will add it to this post.


That would be interesting...
Neil


Here you go Neil! Thanks again to Mr. Hunnicutt's Pershing book, page109.


The Bailey bridge was designed and field long before anyone though about building the Pershing. Caption with the photo: "This is one method of crossing a 60 ton Bailey bridge. The heavy timbers were used to protect the bridge curbs." This tight fit problem wasn't corrected until after the end of WW II. I sure most expericened tracked vehicle operators will look at that photo and cringe with the though of 'throwing a track' right in the middle of that. Then try doing a crossing like that under fire. Surprised

Note: Width of a T-23, T-23E1, T-23E2 and T-23E3 was 138 inches over the sandshields.
My guess is the sandshields only added an inch or so to the width.

Note: M-6A1 Heavy tank: Width over track armor 123 inches.
Combat loaded weight: 126,300 pounds (or 63 tons).
Looks like a M-6A1 would fit on a Bailey Bridge, but it would need more panels added to rise the load limit.

My 2 cents on the bridge problem.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:05 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- Roy_A_Lingle

The Bailey bridge was designed and field long before anyone though about building the Pershing. Caption with the photo: "This is one method of crossing a 60 ton Bailey bridge. The heavy timbers were used to protect the bridge curbs." This tight fit problem wasn't corrected until after the end of WW II. I sure most expericened tracked vehicle operators will look at that photo and cringe with the though of 'throwing a track' right in the middle of that. Then try doing a crossing like that under fire. Surprised

Note: Width of a T-23, T-23E1, T-23E2 and T-23E3 was 138 inches over the sandshields.
My guess is the sandshields only added an inch or so to the width.

Note: M-6A1 Heavy tank: Width over track armor 123 inches.
Combat loaded weight: 126,300 pounds (or 63 tons).
Looks like a M-6A1 would fit on a Bailey Bridge, but it would need more panels added to rise the load limit.

My 2 cents on the bridge problem.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


Hi all,

As any engineer will tell you, the challenge isn't normally the dimensions of the vehicles crossing, it's the Load Class of the vehicle(s).

Bailey Bridges can easily handle up to MLC (Military Load Class) 100 crossings *if* they are constructed to handle that. MLC 30+ requires significant additional resources (panels, linkage sets, anchors, installation equipment/cranes, and much more time). It's not impossible, but to install such a bridge at every water crossing across Europe would rapidly strain the available bridging assets of the Allied armies.

Existing bridges in Europe at that time, even undamaged, were generally not designed to handle loads over MLC 20. This means that even capturing existing bridging intact was no guarantee that a heavy tank will be able to use it safely. (Some here may recall a large-scale effort to upgrade the German road bridge system in the 70's, to better support the growing weight of NATO AFVs.)

Just a little gas for the fire...

C

MLC = Military Load Class: For tracked vehicles, roughly the same as the overall weight in tons. For wheeled vehicles, the computation is more complex, and depends on the number of axles and tire size, among other factors. The MLC capacity of a bridge is based on the construction materials and structure of the the bridge, as well as the approaches and roadbed. Most not-modern bridges top out in the MLC 20-25 range, with higher MLCs usually requiring modern steel or concrete construction.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:05 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

yes, i realize we are all civil here. i think remembering back to the old forum (no registering to post/reply) you had more folks commenting, many along the lines of what doug had mentioned (i just saw this or that on the boob tube). i think we are all pretty familar with everyone who is conversing on the forum now... so no blood, but you make a good point bob.
roy, glad you feel that way about the sherman now.
i agree with the 20/20 hindsight part...

there is a big difference between doctrine and reality... war distinquishes the two very quickly, "sorts" things out, defines them if you will.

there were various doctrines and armor philosophies, etc that were being formulated between the wars, many doctrines that unfortunately would dictate the way armies would fight the war. once the fighting starts, things evolve very rapidly, then you are stuck with doctrines that turn out to be a crock. the wargames the u.s. conducted in 39, 40 lead to the development of the TD force. (the u.s. didnt run into any enemy heavies until 1943-- tigers in tunisia, panthers at anzio). how do you change your doctrine, etc. etc. that quickly... one cant. the many facets that formulated and built the u.s. armored force up until that point of say 1944, how do you change it, improve it (whatever you want to call it), how do you do that and yet, still have it perform/function and continue to fight...
drive, drive, drive, go, go, go ...
i think that the americans and the brits had a fairly good combined arms philosophy going-- the sherman fit into that operation...
the tank is a piece of artillery (can be heatedly contested but i think that still holds true even today).
the ground work was laid, the game plan drawn up, within reason, before "first contact" was even made, before many debated thoughts and philosophies could be proven or disproven...
things never turn out how you would often hope.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- C_Sherman



Existing bridges in Europe at that time, even undamaged, were generally not designed to handle loads over MLC 20. This means that even capturing existing bridging intact was no guarantee that a heavy tank will be able to use it safely. (Some here may recall a large-scale effort to upgrade the German road bridge system in the 70's, to better support the growing weight of NATO AFVs.)

Just a little gas for the fire...

C



One reason why railroad bridges were so valuable. I know load limits are the critical factor in bridgeing but the problem I read about was a dimensional problem. Weight issues could be somewhat miticated by spacing out the heavy vehicles but if it's too wide, it's too wide the picture Roy found demonstrates that very well

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

Hi Folks!

This has been touched on some by others, but I would like to lay this out for the record.

The Sherman had two problems.

1. The Doctrine that was developed as the U.S. started ramping up for a globe war and sadly didn't change until after the war ended. The details of this problem will make a good size book.

2. Size and weight restictions that limited the early designs and as the war progressed delayed the fielding of better protected tanks with larger weapons. The technical problems cause their own sets of delays, but in many cases, I feel they were used to support the "Doctrine".

Neil and Bob have been looking at the problems with shipping. The limits of shipping was Shocked A Shocked problem that did delayed things, that is true. Could what was shipped been changed? Yes it could have had the need to support a different 'Doctrine'. But then again, look what happiened to the Pershings that were shipped to the PTO.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

The Sherman had two problems.

1. The Doctrine that was developed as the U.S. started ramping up for a globe war and sadly didn't change until after the war ended. The details of this problem will make a good size book.




the armored doctrines that the americans developed were very similar to the doctrines that the germans had pioneered and had been debated amongst the brits and french prior to the war. tanks werent meant to engage other tanks. thus they werent designed with anti-tank roles as there primary function. engaging and destroying armor was the role of the artillery, air support, and anti-tank guns. anti-tank guns (aka the tank destroyer) were developed to engage enemy armor, in the defensive posture, brought from the “reserve� or higher command elements, to the point(s) of enemy armor breakthrough. major general mcnair bore much of the responsibility for this way of thinking for the americans. only time would tell, if this american use of armor was effective. unfortunately, the americans entered the war late, had a retarded tank program, one which lagged way behind the germans, russians and brits. time and combat experience were against the americans.
all nations included, it was just a matter of time before folks had to realize that the more armor units start running across the battlefield, sooner or later they eventually would have to face each other. the germans and the russians learned this very quickly. americans didnt learn this until 1943/44 (too late, u.s. industry already producing according to the parameters set down in 1941/42).

one of us had brought up the idea of why the americans hadnt been a little quicker to design a heavy (or heavier) tank early than it had. it wasnt part of the armored doctrine at the time. tanks were to be fast and exploit, heavy doesnt fit this parameter. besides the french and british and the russians, no one had heavy tanks prior to 1942.
heavy tanks werent an element found in the blitzkrieg principles. the blitzkrieg had defeated the french and british heavy armor in 1940, and was well on it way to defeating the russian heavy armor in 1941. the americans had no real urgency to design and field a heavy tank. ** how can you change what you dont know to be broken yet. **

2. Size and weight restictions that limited the early designs and as the war progressed delayed the fielding of better protected tanks with larger weapons. The technical problems cause their own sets of delays, but in many cases, I feel they were used to support the "Doctrine".

yes, i agree roy, but i wouldnt use the phrase “support the doctrine�, more like fit the parameters laid out by the doctrine. size and weight restrictions meet the requirement of tanks that are mobile and can breakthrough and exploit the enemy. those restrictions were acquiring to the armored doctrine that the americans had adopted for its armored force. restrictions that werent necessarily determined by shipping, logistical support and the like. the pershing was well armored, well armed, and had adequate speed (could exploit and support�the role of the tank). armored warfare had evolved and had dictated that tanks will eventually have to engage AND defeat other tanks while still falling under the qualifications of being a tank and not a tank destroyer. the pershing met these qualifications, and for 1942 the sherman had met these qualifications.

anyway, never thought i would show favor for the russians but they were the only ones to really design heavy armor and with reasonable adequacy be able to support and sustain that heavy armor in the field effectively. they had many logistical problems but they didnt suffer such as the germans as to have that heavy armor be more of a detriment.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:59 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

Hi Folks!

A Techical Point - The Pershing was needed because it had better protection.

Look at the following three photos and asked yourselfs if that is correct.

From an article in the old Journal of Military Ordnance titled "What's Wrong With the T26E3?" dated July 2002. Vehicle is Nu 25, Reg. Nu. 30119835, March 6, 1945. Vehicle was hit by a 75 or 88 mm round which went through the front under slope, started a secondary ammo fire which burned out the turret area. "Amazingly, the crew surivived unharmend."



This photo comes from Hunnicutt's Pershing book, page 18. Vehicle nu. 38, Reg. Nu. 30119848, vehicle name "Fireball", Feb 26, 1945. Hit three times by a Tiger I, first round hit near the coaxial machine gun port, entering the turret and killing the loader and gunner. The second and third rounds hit, but didn't penetrate. One destoryed the 90mm gun barrel which had to be replaced. Vehicle was repaired and returned to service by March 7th 1945.



This photo also comes from Hunnicutt's Pershing, page 192. The vehicle IS a M46 that was destoryed by a 85mm round from a T-34 during the Korean War. This photo still support my point because the T-23E3 and the M-46 both had the same front hulls and the Soviet 85mm round is between the German 75s and 88mm rounds.



If the front of a T-23E3 had better protection than the Shermans tanks, why did the 3rd Armored Division, cut up a Panther hull and weld parts of it onto a Pershing tank? Could it be, they had learned that the front of a Pershing wasn't any better than the Sherman is was replacing?

Was the T-23E3 with it's heavier armored really needed? Did shipping schedules need to be changed just so wider and heavier tanks could be sent?

Technical Point - more armor.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:51 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

I think the 3 AD attempt at a Super Pershing was an ordnance maintenance shop gone wild. Get any group of GI's who have the tools and the time and they love to modify equipment to make it 'better'.

So they get a new test Pershing with the new 'super' 90mm (It was even more powerful than the 90mm used in the regular Pershing) and they decide to modify the tank so it can go out 'Tiger Hunting' Extra armor, extra hydraulic cylinders to help move the heavier gun barrel with the extra armor, etc. It all probably defeated the purpose of getting a test tank out to the field in the first place. (Of course the fact that the supply system misplaced the ammunition for the new gun so they couldn't actually use it for several weeks didn't help.)

Roy brings up a good point about the first Pershings sent to Europe. It's been a while since I looked at the summary of what happened to them that is in the Hunnicutt book but I remember being surprised at how badly they got shot up in ashort period of time

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

The problem with the 90mm armed Sherman was breaking the 90s loose from Air Defence from what I understand. We might have had a better tank than the Pershing ealrier but they apparently tried to get too advanced and the army didn't like the support requirements. My impression is that we could have had 90mm armed Shermans by the summer of 44 if the army (and its various components) thought it was necessary. But you are dealing here with at least 4 major beurocratic organizations and probably more. If the user had stated clearly and loudly it was needed then it could have been accomplished and fairly quickly but there was no loud united voice to that regard until after D-Day.

I thought the occurance of Tigers in Africa was so rare that few conidered it a serious problem (short sighted I know but ....)
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:22 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

oh i agree whole heartedly roy. armored protection was the key, more armor indeed! it hurts to say, cause i are one, but we americans fell way behind in tank design and production, and we paid the price. we came out on top but it cost us. i think that the american automotive industry and all involved, given more time, addressing the issues sooner (hindsight again), could have designed or initiated a tank program much earlier than we had. the russians and the germans beat us, they got started in the arms race much sooner, but still they had us beat when it came to dealing with the armor protection dilema.
not all they did was successful, but they were addressing the problem. doesnt mean i feel they designed and built better tanks, they were just working on solutions.

i am going to quote an author here, makes a very good point, would apply to the Pershings as well as the Shermans:
"Perhaps the wonder is not that the M4 succeeded in spite of its early problems, but that, given the restrictions imposed by circumstances, it was as good as it was. At the time of its first service evaluations in early 1942, the M4 Sherman was easily one of the best all-around tanks in the world."

the arms race escalated very quickly and america fell even further behind.
at least i give the americans credit for at least showing the insight to be albe to design, initiate and implement "weapon systems", if you will, that they knew and understood that they had to support, that they could field. americans, didnt go ape and try to make all of these crazy super weapons and behemoths that werent practical for the circumstances at hand. no comments on that tortoise thingy. to reverse that logic, many of what the germans fielded, way to early, could they have saved more of their lives by not being so hasty? if time was of the essance, they couldnt afford it, that is a good pro for the sherman and american industry. america could continue to produce, make efforts for improvement, without distrupting the flow of production. we didnt stop, as the enemy, and start over from the ground up everytime with all of the new design, r&d, etc. to make a new tank. for the idea of designing a tank that could be produced at roughly 2000 a month, the americans were on their way to doing so. considering all of the changes and modifications that evolved during that production, the u.s. did very well. anyway...
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:35 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

Another thought is that designing a tank to be the best one on one is not necessarily the best way to design the tank that is best for the army. More armor means a lot more weight at that time and more resouces. While haveing a vehicle with the armor and weapons of a Sherman may have cost the US tankers more casualties (even that is not necessarily true) it probably saved US lives overall. The numbers of tanks that could be manufactured, transported, crewed, and supported meant that when the US needed a tank not only could one usually be found but there was a good chance that several could. This meant a lot of support for the infantry and it mde it easier to mass for breakouts and sustain said breakouts. I maintain that from the US Armies point of view there probably was no better tank that fought in WWII. Now a Sherman with a 90mm gun in 44 would have been better but that's a definite what if. Another thing about armor as I recall someone posted on the old board (or perhaps it was tank net) that the main complaint of US tankers wasn't the armor it was not having a big enough gun.
Back to top
View user's profile
Skeet
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

Bob Smart wrote:

"They used...American AP that had the explosive filler removed (I assume they were delivered with the cavity empty and that they did notactually remove the explosive charge that the Americans designed the rounds for). "

Many years ago a WWII/Sherman vet told me they were really happy when their 75 mm Shermans were replaced with 3" navy gunned Shermans (his choice of words). I presume what he called 3" navy guns were the 76 mm gun.

He said they liked them because you could add "gunpowder" to the shell. I never fully understood what he meant by that, but his words stayed with me. After reading Bob Smart's comment, I'd guess they were talking about the same thing.

Comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

- Skeet
Bob Smart wrote:

"They used...American AP that had the explosive filler removed (I assume they were delivered with the cavity empty and that they did notactually remove the explosive charge that the Americans designed the rounds for). "

Many years ago a WWII/Sherman vet told me they were really happy when their 75 mm Shermans were replaced with 3" navy gunned Shermans (his choice of words). I presume what he called 3" navy guns were the 76 mm gun.

He said they liked them because you could add "gunpowder" to the shell. I never fully understood what he meant by that, but his words stayed with me. After reading Bob Smart's comment, I'd guess they were talking about the same thing.

Comments?


Was this an American, British, or other Vet?

The Americans had an explosive filler in some of their AP rounds, other ones were solid. As I understand it once the APHE became standard the British did not want the filler in the round.

I don't know of any 76mm gun Shermans being issued to British units (Like the GAA engined M4A3 the U.S. tended to keep the 76mm Shermans for themselves, but 76mm gunned M4A2s were sent to the Soviets)

We had a discussion on the old board about the 'navy 3" gun'. I think this is one of those cases where word of mouth got it wrong but it became perpetuated and won't die. The M10 was equiped with an Army 3" (started life as an AA gun). I beleive the 76mm in the Sherman and the 3" used the same round. There were differences in the gun itself though.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Skeet
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

This was a U.S. Army vet. I suspect that the grunts on the ground use words that weren't exactly true, but served their purposes.

This same vet used to talk about the German 88's. A lot of what he spoke about seemed to indicate they could have been 88's. But a lot of what he said made me wonder how (why?) the German's could be using 88's like that, i.e. indirect fire into camps/parks on reverse slopes. I posted that question a while back, and the consenus was that lot's of WWII vets from the ETO referred to all German artillery as 88's.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 4
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum