±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 568
Total: 568
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: CPGlang
03: Community Forums
04: Downloads
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Downloads
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Photo Gallery
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: CPGlang
18: Downloads
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Downloads
28: Photo Gallery
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Statistics
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Downloads
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Downloads
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Home
74: Downloads
75: Community Forums
76: Downloads
77: Photo Gallery
78: Member Screenshots
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Home
95: Photo Gallery
96: Community Forums
97: Your Account
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Statistics
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Downloads
133: News
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Photo Gallery
144: Statistics
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Downloads
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: News
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Downloads
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Statistics
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: News
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Your Account
199: Photo Gallery
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Your Account
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Your Account
216: Member Screenshots
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: CPGlang
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Member Screenshots
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Member Screenshots
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Downloads
287: Community Forums
288: News Archive
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Downloads
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Home
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Downloads
339: Community Forums
340: Downloads
341: Photo Gallery
342: Community Forums
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Downloads
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: CPGlang
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Search
378: Community Forums
379: Member Screenshots
380: Downloads
381: Downloads
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Downloads
396: Statistics
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Member Screenshots
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Photo Gallery
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Member Screenshots
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Your Account
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Your Account
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Downloads
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: News
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Photo Gallery
456: Downloads
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Downloads
461: Home
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Statistics
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Home
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Member Screenshots
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Statistics
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: CPGlang
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: CPGlang
505: Photo Gallery
506: Home
507: Your Account
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Member Screenshots
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: CPGlang
520: CPGlang
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: Home
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Home
530: CPGlang
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Photo Gallery
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: CPGlang
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Photo Gallery
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Photo Gallery
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Your Account
554: Downloads
555: Community Forums
556: CPGlang
557: Downloads
558: CPGlang
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: CPGlang
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:45 pm
Post subject: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Folks!

I was looking through the Webshots Dot Com site for a pair of colored photos of that US M4A1 that was recovered off Omaha beach.

While using the site SEARCH function, I ran acossed this vehicle. Have no idea who took or posted these photo to the site.
Warning: pictures are a bit large which is why I didn't post them to this DG, sorry Folks.

i41.photobucket.com/al...murm-1.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urRRcl.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urmayb.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urFLlo.jpg

Not sure, but I think it is at Samur.

Niel has posted pictures of a M4A2 76 mm DD with the HVSS (E8) suspension. But a M4A1 76 mm with VVSS is a new version of the DD to me.

Speaking of Webshots Dot Com, while using the SEARCH function using "France" and "Tank", I found 24 pages with 1,669 photos. Now there are some that have nothing to do with tanks in France, but there are a lot of military related pictures. There is about five pages of a photos titled "Barbarossa" which has a lot of Eastern Front WWII black and white shots along with a few WW II photos from all over the globe.

If you have some time to kill, check it out.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Don't try searching with "DD" and "Tank". You get a large number of pictures of someone's friend called DD along with a few destoryer (as in ship) pictures.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is at Saumur, it's PTIF#114 from my book on Preserved Tanks in France:



In the book I wrote:

"This is a Mark IIAY, modified from an M4A1 (76)W. It is in poor condition and is missing its flotation screen, muzzle brake and both propellers."

I don't have any other information on it, but it's certainly an unusual beast.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

THere has GOT to be an interesting story on this fellow! Clearly a DD hull, but what's that 76mm turret doing on it?

It defies "conventional wisdom" on the DD tanks and the 76mm tanks. It would be interesting to know more about the sinking and the exact date.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Though unusual, it is of course not entirely unique:


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is a very old picture of the M4A2 HVSS 76mm DD test tank at Aberdeen. The picture was taken on the old 'Mile of Tanks' but it has been sitting in the Belair street storage yard for at least 8 years but probably more than 10 years. Neil has much more recent pictures that were taken during one the tour I led of the Belair Street yard during AMPs this spring (The first time enthusiasts have been able to get into that yard in years) There are probably a bunch of other pictures of it from that tour. It was one of the most popular items in that yard (But everything in the yard was popular that day!)

The tanks was tested for possible use during the Invasion of Japan. I suspect that if it was deployed it would have been deployed in the M4A3 version and that the M4A2 was used for test purposes because it was more available without impacting issue of the more desired A3 version

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The picture is pretty old - I probably took it in the 1982 or 1983.

OT, while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:

www.strijdbewijs.nl/ta...araeng.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Trevor! Hi Folks!

- TrevorLarkum

.....while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:


Very interesting link! Thank You Trevor!

Those DD Tank photos by Robert Capa has puzzled me for years. Some time back I started collecting photos and information about the DD system with the hope that someday I would be able to build a 1/35 scale model of one with the screen up. So far, it's still in the planning stages.

Those "chimney" or "rectangle shapes" are a problem.

By chimney, I wonder if the writer MIGHT have been talking about the rerouted air flow at the the rear of the tank. The M4A1's, and M4A4's had an air exhaust under the upper rear hull which over hung the lower rear hull. On the DD's this exhaust was below the bottom edge of the screens. There was something like the lower section of a wading truck that redirected the airflow from it normal downward flow and diverted it upward and into the inside rear area of the of the screen.

Now for Robert Capa's photo. I don't think those "rectangle shapes" are on those tanks. I think they are something that is on the beach on the other side of those DD's.

Look at the left DD. The one that is sideways. I think we are looking at an opened splite type of TC hatch. If that rectangle is on that tank, it's mounted on the rear of the turret and not the hull. It's front edge is in line with the back edge of the TC hatch.

Look at the right DD. The one were we can see the props. Again we can see an open splite type of TC hatch. In that photo, the rectangle is to the left of the TC's hatch and centered on the vehicle.

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets. The TC stood on a metal platform that was welded onto the top rear edge of the bustle area and behind the TC hatch area. He had a pipe to hold onto with one hand and the tiller for the props with his other hand. A LARGE "chimney" that would be mounted on the center rear area of the turrret's bustle would be a massive blind spot for the TC when he was standing outside the turret and driving the tank.

For a long time I wonder what those things where that look like they are mounted on those two DD's. After collecting a folder full of limited info on DD's and the screen system, I think that those things are on the other side of those two vehicles and are NOT mounted on them.

If I understand the story correctly, the author is Dutch. The crews he interviewed would be Americans (?). Maybe the term chimney is something that got lost in the translatation to Dutch and then back to English?

A note about the number 10 on that tank with the wading trunks.
That vehicle should be a bulldozer tank. The 10 stands for landing craft gap number 10. That dozer was detailed to the Special Engineer Task Force (SETF) Gap Team number 10. It's mission was to support the Navy engineers below the water line as they opened up their area of the gap. After that, the dozers were to support the Army engineers as they cleared the gap above the water line. After the gaps were opened up, most of the bulldozers would return to control of their assigned tank battalions.

Gap 10 was planned for the right (looking at the beach from the sea) edge of Easy Red Beach. Robert Capa's photos were taken in the area between Easy-Red and Fox-Green. That would be at the left (again, looking at the beach from the sea) end of Easy-Red and in the area of Gap 15. About 1,400 yards left of where it should have landed.

My 2 cents on DD chimneys and a little info on what I have learned about D-Day bulldozer tanks.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
The info about the bulldozer tanks comes from "Spearheading D-Day, American Special Units in Normandy" by Jonathan Gawne, Histoire @ Collections, Paris, 1998, ISBN 2 908 182 793. For anyone who is interested in the stories of D-Day, that book is HIGHLY Recommended by Stephen "Cookie" Sewell in a review he wrote for Armor Magazine in the January-February 2000 issue, page 51. It corrects and explains a number of facts that Cornelius Ryan got wrong in his book, "The Longest Day".

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The Dutch poster is quoting from the novel "Hell Has No Heroes", originally published as "Barbara" ca. 1951. A great read on an American tank crew in Europe by Wayne Robinson who actually served with the 743rd Tank Battalion. A number of incidents in the novel parallel those in the 743rd's published history. While Mr. Robinson DID actually serve with the tank battalion, I have found a number of minor "flaws" in his work. In the novel, Robinson implies tyhat Barbara is a welded hull tank. He refers to the "new" turtle-hulled tanks arriving later. Any DD nut knows that the US DD's were based on M4A1s with cast upper hulls. I am also wondering if his memory confused the "chimneys" or wading stacks to us, of the deep-water equipped Shermans with the DD tanks.

Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.

Gary B
Back to top
View user's profile
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Gary! Hi Folks!

- binder001

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.
Gary B


I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

What we are seeing on the US DD's is the modified idlers were the drive plate has been removed and is exposing the mounting ring with the holes for the bolts.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'll have to check my copy of Barbara this weekend but I thought it came out much later than 1951. I picked up the paperbackHell Has No Heroes a long while back at a used book sale. I noticed that it had originally been titled Barbara but didn't think much about it. Then at a junk shop/antique store (more like a barn) on a side road outside Gettysburg there was a table of books and scanning the titles I saw Barbara on an old hardback. I picked it up and sure enough it was 'the one'. I'm pretty sure it has the author's bio in it. I'll pull it out and check teh copyright this weekend but I think it is late 50s or maybe even 1961 (That date sticks in my head)

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- Roy_A_Lingle

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets.


I think you may be right with your general conclusions, but it may be that this is a possible solution, that a simple 'chimney' was built up around the TC's position, for protection or some other reason. It fascinates me that after all this time there are still some things to learn and mysteries to resolve.


- binder001
Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used


If I can find any more, close-up, pictures I'll post them here.


- tanker2010
I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

You are quite right - I misspoke (miswrote?). The US tanks lack the toothed sprocket drive ring. The idlers don't look like Sherman sprockets with the toothed ring removed. There is still a track contact surface, not unlike an idler wheel. I have not seen that on any Sherman sprocket that I have run across, hence my reference to a "modified idler". The sprockets support the track with the teeth on the end connectors, but a VVSS or HVSS idler contacts the track block surface. The DD idler SEEMS to combine the idler wheel with a mounting ring or such surface that allowed the use of the toothed sprocket.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Presumably the idea was just to give the idler sufficient extra grip so it could power the screws without slipping.

Here's a view on the one at Courseulles (PTIF#9):


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- TrevorLarkum


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.


I understand that, that's not what I'm saying. I think it's just something they threw together at Samur.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum