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Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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bialy-r
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:19 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

I received a photo of M51 Sherman at Overloon Museum.

Is it a new exhibit or a temporary exposition from a private collector from Netherlands ?
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

Meanwhile, on to the next.

Location ID 11220: Nationaal Bevrijdingsmuseum 1944-1945, Groesbeek - Grizzly 'Robin Hood'




As usual please check the information, and I'm grateful for any extra details or photographs (the older the better) that you can provide.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- Michel_Krauss
Ok, will try to explain why I listed it as post-war.
First the Netherlands were mainly liberated by commonwealth (Canadian / British / Polish) forces
Only some regions in the south were liberated by US ground forces, the US paratroopers did not have tanks so we can leave them out of the discussion.

Information source number 1)
There is a Dutch website called "Pantser.net" (dutch only) and there is a description of this 105mm Sherman.
See link posted below:
www.pantser.net/wo2-ca...M4-105.htm

According the information found on this website this version of 105mm Sherman was only used in for training purpose in the commonwealth armies.
Only the US forces used them in combat in Europe.

So based on the information that:
- the Commonwealth forces only used them for training purpose;
- the US forces did not liberated the city of Ede

there are 2 options:
- this Sherman came to the city after it was liberated. After the liberation the Canadian forces remained in the region for a amount of time and most likely conducted training. Toward the end of the war thet were relocated and could have left the tank behind;
- after the war it was handed over from stock to the Dutch army, being surplus


Information source 2:
I have (somewhere :oops: ) a short history about Dutch Sherman tanks, if I remember correct from the National Military Museum Delft.
In this document there is a short history where all Shermans came from.
To be short, all 105mm Shermans came after the war through the MDAP to the Dutch army.

So based on info from the website and the document of the Military museum Delft it is listed as being post-war.


Michel, thanks very much for explaining your reasoning - I think you're spot on. In fact, since I wrote that I have found a Word document on my hard drive that someone sent to me called 'Preserved tanks.doc'. It is uncredited - it contains the name Pieter Bas but I don't think that's the author. My apologies to whoever gave it to me for not recording the source (if it was someone on this forum please let me know - Lesley? Tim?). Anyway it states "This tank was used for anti-tank training at the Ginkelse heide" which I'm happy to accept unless a find a contradictory source. I have therefore rewritten the text based on your input and this finding - please let me know if you think it could be improved:

Unique ID 2351: M4 (105) Sherman 'Cougar'


- Michel_Krauss

The photo's I have are taken in 2010, let me know if you would like to have them.


Yes, please!

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- TrevorLarkum
According to Wikipedia.nl the Sherman at Ede was there originally. In the Netherlands register you have it as a post-war vehicle. Do you (or anyone else) have any more information on that?


Ok, will try to explain why I listed it as post-war.
First the Netherlands were mainly liberated by commonwealth (Canadian / British / Polish) forces
Only some regions in the south were liberated by US ground forces, the US paratroopers did not have tanks so we can leave them out of the discussion.

Information source number 1)
There is a Dutch website called "Pantser.net" (dutch only) and there is a description of this 105mm Sherman.
See link posted below:
www.pantser.net/wo2-ca...M4-105.htm

According the information found on this website this version of 105mm Sherman was only used in for training purpose in the commonwealth armies.
Only the US forces used them in combat in Europe.

So based on the information that:
- the Commonwealth forces only used them for training purpose;
- the US forces did not liberated the city of Ede

there are 2 options:
- this Sherman came to the city after it was liberated. After the liberation the Canadian forces remained in the region for a amount of time and most likely conducted training. Toward the end of the war thet were relocated and could have left the tank behind;
- after the war it was handed over from stock to the Dutch army, being surplus


Information source 2:
I have (somewhere ) a short history about Dutch Sherman tanks, if I remember correct from the National Military Museum Delft.
In this document there is a short history where all Shermans came from.
To be short, all 105mm Shermans came after the war through the MDAP to the Dutch army.

So based on info from the website and the document of the Military museum Delft it is listed as being post-war.

The photo's I have are taken in 2010, let me know if you would like to have them.

Michel

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

I've moved on from Amersfoort, next location:

Location ID 11210: Langenberg Memorial, Ede - M4 (105) 'Cougar'




- Michel_Krauss
what do you need :wink:
...
- Sherman M4(105) at Ede;
...
:mrgreen:


Yes please! As always, pictures from anyone are appreciated - the older the better.

According to Wikipedia.nl the Sherman at Ede was there originally. In the Netherlands register you have it as a post-war vehicle. Do you (or anyone else) have any more information on that?

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- L.Delsing
Never found it on a T-xx, I know that Soviet/Russian built aircraft have a plate with just the number. Not like the ''western'' dataplates with type info, date of manufacture etc.

The green one is serial 47229

Regards,
Lesley


Photo added, thanks.

I don't track turrets (though P.-O. does sometimes), but thanks anyway.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- L.Delsing
At Amersfoort there is also a Centurion mk.3 turret near the main road and a Leopard 1V turret in front of one of the cavalryschool building.

Taken on July 22, 2010


Taken in June 1998

If you like them I can send them to you.

I don't have a photo of the 1V turret
Regards,
Lesley


I hate it when they cut the grass and don't sweep up... Evil or Very Mad



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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

At Amersfoort there is also a Centurion mk.3 turret near the main road and a Leopard 1V turret in front of one of the cavalryschool building.

Taken on July 22, 2010


Taken in June 1998

If you like them I can send them to you.

I don't have a photo of the 1V turret
Regards,
Lesley
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

Never found it on a T-xx, I know that Soviet/Russian built aircraft have a plate with just the number. Not like the ''western'' dataplates with type info, date of manufacture etc.

The green one is serial 47229


Regards,
Lesley
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

I'm not sure that Soviet vehicles have internal data plates - perhaps someone else could correct me on that. Usually the best you can do is find a serial number stamped into the lower glacis.

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:02 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

Forgot to mention.

When Massimo visited the museum Overloon we made some inquiries about both T34 located there.

We asked one of the staff members that did maintenance on the green T34 if he could help with serial numbers of both vehicle's.

According his information there are no marking plates inside the vehicle's, all such plates had been removed.
He also did not know anything about the back ground of both vehicle's other then that all remaining markings inside are russian.

This is also for ZSU Shilka at Overloon, all markings are in Russian.

Michel

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Basically it is an M4A3(105) HVSS hull fitted with the twin diesel engine out of an M4A2.

HTH
Hanno


Updated, thanks: Indefatigable Gerard


- Michel_Krauss
Do you mean the former Marshall musuem or Army Cars as it's called now :?

This T34/85 is not part of their collection any more for at least a couple of years.
According the webvert it's already property from 1987, this could be true indeed because various vehicle's at the former Marshall Museum Zwijndrecht location where on loan

Army Cars is the trading branch of the former Marshall musuem and does not own any tracked AFV any more.
Everything has been sold about 12-18 months ago.

Michel


I have extended the writeup of the Marshall Museum to include the more recent Army Cars museum - I will return to this later and complete it:

Location ID 11950: Marshall Museum / Army Cars


- L.Delsing
Searched for it in the past and didn't see it, but it seems someone removed some paint/rust.

The serial of the IS-2 in the Overloon museum; NC 12240334


Photo and serial added - thanks: Overloon IS-2

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

- TrevorLarkum
I'm currently working on the Amersfoort museum, so far I'm about halfway (about 90 photos):

Location ID 11700: Cavalry Museum, Amersfoort


Well, it's taken a month but Amersfoort is now done! Lesley has helped a lot with vehicle information, as has Michel K (via the Netherlands register), plus I've found a lot of information on the internet so I've managed to get the background history (particularly previous locations) of many of the vehicles.

I'm grateful too for the contributions of numerous photographs, the main contributors are:

Lesley Delsing: 38 Photos
Michel Krauss: 14 Photos
Doug Kibbey: 13 Photos
Wikimedia: 70 Photos
Total for all photos is now 340, as per link below, and many of the tanks now have very good 'time machine' views.


Location ID 1170: Cavaleriemuseum, Amersfoort



[Note that, as usual, you will have to click through to the profile pages for the German tanks for their background information as they are considered part of the Preserved German Tanks book, rather than Preserved Tanks in Netherland].


Some tanks have travelled a lot, such as this Centurion:

Unique ID 2330: Centurion, Amersfoort


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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

Visited 't Harde today (Tonnet barracks), there is a AMX-13 (r/n KN-70-13) with the markings ''11A'' (11th Artillery battalion) and tactical number ''A15'' (A-coy, 1st plt, 5th vehicle) artillery variant preserved (not visible from outside) and the M113C&V is gone. Just an emty concrete slab... (at 29.6.'12 still nothing..)

Couple of weeks ago it was still there. I hope it is only for maintenance..

At Soesterberg, Zeisterspoor, the Leopard 1V was still there. Unfortunately the museum was closed. Friday a second try.

At Kamp Soesterberg was a M113C&V wreck ''stored''/dumped. Not possible to read the registrationnumber.
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JWB2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:45 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in the Netherlands

That is a great find. Whoever scraped the paint should be given some kind of position there.
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