±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 530
Total: 530
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Member Screenshots
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Downloads
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Downloads
28: CPGlang
29: Home
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: CPGlang
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Member Screenshots
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: News Archive
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Statistics
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Downloads
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Your Account
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Downloads
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Member Screenshots
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Downloads
133: Member Screenshots
134: Photo Gallery
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Downloads
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Supporters
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Downloads
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Downloads
167: Downloads
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: News Archive
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: CPGlang
175: Community Forums
176: Member Screenshots
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Downloads
184: CPGlang
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Downloads
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Statistics
197: Home
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Your Account
204: Your Account
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: CPGlang
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Downloads
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: CPGlang
234: Photo Gallery
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Home
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Your Account
243: Member Screenshots
244: Photo Gallery
245: Photo Gallery
246: Member Screenshots
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Downloads
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Your Account
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Photo Gallery
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Your Account
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: CPGlang
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Photo Gallery
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Downloads
317: Community Forums
318: Downloads
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Home
334: Photo Gallery
335: Statistics
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Downloads
357: Photo Gallery
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Downloads
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Downloads
369: Photo Gallery
370: CPGlang
371: Photo Gallery
372: Photo Gallery
373: CPGlang
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Downloads
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: CPGlang
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Downloads
391: Community Forums
392: Photo Gallery
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Downloads
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Statistics
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Statistics
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Statistics
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: CPGlang
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: CPGlang
423: Photo Gallery
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Statistics
428: Community Forums
429: Member Screenshots
430: Community Forums
431: Your Account
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Member Screenshots
438: CPGlang
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Your Account
445: Community Forums
446: Member Screenshots
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Photo Gallery
463: Photo Gallery
464: Photo Gallery
465: Photo Gallery
466: Member Screenshots
467: Community Forums
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Downloads
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Member Screenshots
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Home
489: Photo Gallery
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: CPGlang
494: CPGlang
495: CPGlang
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Community Forums
499: Downloads
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Home
508: Downloads
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: CPGlang
523: Community Forums
524: Your Account
525: Community Forums
526: Your Account
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:51 pm
Post subject: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Located at the airborne museum in Hotel Hartenstein is the following Sherman;

N51 59.257 E005 49.933
Serial 5964 (rear/right tow lug), see picture



Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno


Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:11 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?


Anthony,

I am not sure what is written in your Regimental history, but let me try to brief you on what we do know about "Argyll Roger".

Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side. Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed. The Sherman was moved to Hotel Hartenstein when the Airborne museum moved there.

In the mid-1980s we researched the question: where did "Argyll Roger" come from? Options were:
1) It was captured by the German Army in September 1944 and left behind in April 1945.
2) It was left there by an Allied unit which liberated Oosterbeek.
3) It was brought there for the making of a movie on Market Garden shortly after WW2. We know a number of tanks and vehicles were brought to Oosterbeek, but we are not sure it included a Sherman tank.
4) For some reason it was brought to Oosterbeek from the Deelen dump, a huge storage area for Commonwealth vehicles.

Option 1) was the most obvious, but we could not find any units which reported a loss of a Sherman V and leaving it there. However, your unit was among the ones which liberated Oosterbeek, and they did have a Sherman named “Argyle”. Sounds like it, doesn’t it? But this tank was not reported lost and it was a Sherman VC Firefly. It was very tempting to stick this identity to "Argyll Roger", and this is what the museum did. They explained the fact that their tank is a regular 75-mm Sherman and not a 17-pdr Firefly by the given that “guns can be easily swapped on Shermans”. However, there is no operational explanation to do so, and IF a Firefly was converted back into a 75-mm gun tank, there would be clear indications this happened. "Argyll Roger" has no signs of having ever been converted into a Firefly and/or back.
So, although this was a tempting solution to fill the gap of a missing history and have he benefit of a Regiment adopting it for restauration, repainting etc. (just like the Grizzly at Groesbeek!), the only right conclusion is that these two tanks are not the same.

Frustrating fact is the provenance of "Argyll Roger" remains an enigma to this day.

I am always willing to discuss further.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Hanno

Very interesting, well this is a true enigma then.Thank you for the possibilites with this sherman.

Cheers

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:54 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side.


Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein, courtesy of Maurice D.

Is there anyone who could tell me who or what "Argyll Roger" is or was?

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed.


Attached is a picture postcard of ca. 1962, provided by a friend, showing Argyll Roger on display at Doorwerth Castle.
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:42 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein


Here's another picture of Argyll Roger in the same location. Source: www.geldersarchief.nl, courtesy of Marco H.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum