±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 774
Total: 774
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: CPGlang
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: CPGlang
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Downloads
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: News
37: Photo Gallery
38: CPGlang
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Home
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: CPGlang
47: Member Screenshots
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Member Screenshots
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: CPGlang
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Downloads
65: Photo Gallery
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: CPGlang
71: Home
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Downloads
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Member Screenshots
91: Home
92: CPGlang
93: Community Forums
94: Downloads
95: Photo Gallery
96: CPGlang
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: CPGlang
101: Downloads
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: CPGlang
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Photo Gallery
109: Search
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: CPGlang
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Your Account
117: Home
118: Photo Gallery
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Member Screenshots
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Member Screenshots
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: CPGlang
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Photo Gallery
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Search
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: CPGlang
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: CPGlang
182: CPGlang
183: Home
184: Home
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Home
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: CPGlang
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Downloads
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Your Account
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Your Account
224: CPGlang
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: CPGlang
231: Downloads
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Downloads
258: Downloads
259: CPGlang
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Statistics
267: Photo Gallery
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Member Screenshots
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Downloads
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: CPGlang
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Supporters
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Your Account
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Home
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: CPGlang
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: CPGlang
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Member Screenshots
314: Photo Gallery
315: CPGlang
316: Your Account
317: Community Forums
318: Downloads
319: Downloads
320: Community Forums
321: Downloads
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Downloads
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Member Screenshots
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: CPGlang
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: CPGlang
348: CPGlang
349: Community Forums
350: News
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Your Account
355: Your Account
356: Community Forums
357: Downloads
358: Photo Gallery
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Photo Gallery
362: Member Screenshots
363: Community Forums
364: CPGlang
365: Home
366: Statistics
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: CPGlang
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Photo Gallery
395: CPGlang
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: CPGlang
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Member Screenshots
421: Member Screenshots
422: Community Forums
423: CPGlang
424: Your Account
425: Photo Gallery
426: Photo Gallery
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: CPGlang
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Downloads
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Home
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Downloads
459: Photo Gallery
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Photo Gallery
467: Downloads
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Downloads
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Downloads
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: CPGlang
492: Photo Gallery
493: CPGlang
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: CPGlang
497: Member Screenshots
498: Home
499: Home
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Supporters
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: News Archive
518: Photo Gallery
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Home
525: CPGlang
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Home
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Home
535: Community Forums
536: CPGlang
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Home
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Downloads
549: Community Forums
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: CPGlang
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: CPGlang
559: Photo Gallery
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Downloads
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Photo Gallery
583: CPGlang
584: Community Forums
585: Home
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Downloads
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: CPGlang
594: Home
595: Photo Gallery
596: Community Forums
597: Your Account
598: Home
599: Community Forums
600: Member Screenshots
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Search
604: Downloads
605: Photo Gallery
606: Member Screenshots
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Home
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: CPGlang
631: Home
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: News
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Photo Gallery
643: Community Forums
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Photo Gallery
647: Home
648: Community Forums
649: CPGlang
650: Home
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Downloads
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Photo Gallery
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Home
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Home
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Photo Gallery
671: CPGlang
672: Home
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Photo Gallery
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Home
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Photo Gallery
685: Photo Gallery
686: Community Forums
687: CPGlang
688: CPGlang
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Photo Gallery
692: Photo Gallery
693: Your Account
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Member Screenshots
699: Downloads
700: Downloads
701: CPGlang
702: Home
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: CPGlang
709: Community Forums
710: Your Account
711: Community Forums
712: Photo Gallery
713: Home
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: CPGlang
717: Community Forums
718: Downloads
719: Photo Gallery
720: Photo Gallery
721: Community Forums
722: Photo Gallery
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Member Screenshots
726: Community Forums
727: Home
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Home
733: Downloads
734: Photo Gallery
735: Community Forums
736: CPGlang
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Home
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: CPGlang
744: CPGlang
745: CPGlang
746: Community Forums
747: Member Screenshots
748: Community Forums
749: Home
750: Photo Gallery
751: Downloads
752: Community Forums
753: Photo Gallery
754: Home
755: Photo Gallery
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Home
759: CPGlang
760: Community Forums
761: Photo Gallery
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Photo Gallery
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Home
768: Photo Gallery
769: Community Forums
770: CPGlang
771: Home
772: Community Forums
773: Your Account
774: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M114 'Lingle' background info
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:08 am
Post subject: M114 'Lingle' background info

I have been a little fuzzy on the variant identification of the M114 as well as an interest in the SN 'game' on the M114.

While doing some late night 'light reading' from the M114 TM 9-2320-224-10, I found a reference that has shed a little light on my informational short-comings.

The M114 (T114) mounts the standard pintle mounted M-2, .50cal commanders weapon.

The M114A1 mounts the M-2, .50cal MG which is internally (solinoid) fired.

The M114A2 (M114A1E1) has the 20mm cannon.

In the TM an interesting notation is found on page 143 (C9) on the M114A1E1.

"The M114A1 vehicle (after serial No. 624), when equipt with the commander's XM27 power cupola and 20mm rapid fire weapon system, is designated as an M114A1E1 vehicle."

just a little 'Lingle' info that I thought y'all might find interesting.

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Dontos! Hi Folks!

You should have asked me, I could have saved you some reading!

The M-114 here at Ft. Bliss is all three.

It was build as a M-114A1

It was upgraded to a M-114A1E1 (or M-114A2 as we called them during the last few years they were in service).

Then during the M-901 TUA and FIST program, it losted it's XM-29 turret to that program.

The gun cradle for the 20mm auto cannon is laying inside it.

Then someone found a T-114 turret and mounted it on the vehicle.

The M-114A1 mounted a XM-26 manuely operated turret and the 50 cal.s where M-2HB TTs. TT = remote fired using a solinoid. It was faster to turn the vehicle than move that turret with the hand crank.

The M-114A1E1 (or M-114A2) mounted the XM-27 hydraulic power turret and the M-139 HS 20mm auto cannon. It was a XM-26 with the manuel contorls replaced by a hydraulic system and a fire selection box added.

If I remember right, the fire selections where 25 rounds rapid, 25 rounds slow, 5 rounds rapid, 5 rounds slow and single shot. I learned the best way to fire that cannon was single shot. The 5 and 25 round selections rocked the vehicle so bad that only the first round would hit a target and all the rest would go over the top.

Ammo came in 25 round belts, two AP-T then three HE-T. I forget how many rounds the ammo box could hold. At the start of the feed chute was a last round detection switch that would interrupt the firing circuit. The fire selection box had an emergancy over ride button that would let you use the last 25 rounds inside the feed chute. If you every had to do that, you had better be able to find cover and some time, because it took a few minutes to reload the feed chute and the feeder assemble. One great thing about that cannon and the way the feeder assemble was loaded was the crews had a ratchet wrench as a part of the weapon's tool kit. AKAIK, the M-114A1E1(M-114A2) was the only vehicle in the Army to rate a ratchet. It was a saftey thing. Using a flex handle socket wrench to position the first round in the feeder assemble could get you hurt if something when wrong and the weapon fired.

During an intell briffing I was told that the AP round could go through the sides of the hulls of the Soviet T-54s, T-55s, and T-62s. I am very happy to have never had to find out.

Spot Report along with some of my old history!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Thanks Roy

I think the SN notation IRT the variant designation was particularily interesting.

This '-10' is filled with more info on the 20mm than it is with the vehicle operation, I'm guessing that there was a problem with understanding its operation and a considerable amount of operators maintenance involved to keep it 'plinking' away.

My interest is primarily on the automotive operation of the vehicle and getting SN 172 roaring to life again.

For those interested individuals, I'm posting some images on my facebook that are viewable to 'the public' and don't require 'membership' or friends approval.

M114 (SN 172)

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Dontos! Hi Folks!

- Dontos

This '-10' is filled with more info on the 20mm than it is with the vehicle operation, I'm guessing that there was a problem with understanding its operation and a considerable amount of operators maintenance involved to keep it 'plinking' away.
Don


"Considerable amount of operators maintenance" is AN UNDERSTATEMENT!

At the time I was learning to operate that weapon, the word was it had been used in jet fighters. I don't know if that is true or not.

During one of the Reforger FTXs, one of the M-114 crews never broke their cannon down and cleaned it. After about 15 days in the field, they had to use a PIPE wrench to get the barrel to come out of the receiver. Never heard of that problem with the M-60 MG or the old M-2 HBs.

The old PS maintance magazine had an article that recommended during training that the weapon be torn down and cleaned after 450 or 550 rounds. During my time in Germany, the Battalion Commander sent the M-114s with the Division Valcun batteries up to an AAA range on the Baltic coast for some anti-aircraft training. That was a lot fun! On the next to the last day we set aside some ammo to be fired on the last day while one of the Assistant Division Commanders watched. One of the vehicles only fire about 200 rounds so we figured that sense we didn't go over the amount the PS magaizine recommended we didn't need to clean the weapon. BIG MISTAKE! The next day we found that weapon would only fire one shot and then needed to be manualy reloaded. So we started tearing it down so we could clean it. We learn that over the night, the gun power and the LSA (Gun lub back in those days) had mixed together and turned into glue! After a good cleaning and a new bath of LSA, the gun worked just fine!

That M-139 needed a lot of LSA to work and it needed to be clearned often.
The weapon came with a tool set that had a million tools in it! Except for one tool, every one of them was required to break the weapon down. EVERY LAST ONE of them was REQUIRED to put that cannon back to together. Lose just one of those tools and you couldn't take it apart or put it back together. If I remember right, that tool kit had more tools in it than the vehicle automative tool bag had!

It has been said that "AFVs don't move over the ground, they move through it". I never had a problem with a M-2 HB or a M-60 MG firing when needed. That M-139 was not a good choice for an AFV. If it is true that it was an aircraft cannon. Then up in the clean air and an airbase to return to at the end of ever mission so it could be broken down and cleaned it was a good weapon. It was one he## of a weapon to fire. But down in the dirt and dust of the world of AFVs, it was a bad choice. It was fun to fire, but I would not have wanted to take that weapon into a war.

Spot Report, some of my old history, and my 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

- Roy_A_Lingle
At the time I was learning to operate that weapon, the word was it had been used in jet fighters. I don't know if that is true or not.


True, the M139 was a slightly modified version of what originated as an aircraft cannon, specifically the Hispano-Suiza HS.820/Oerlikon KAD.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy, IIRC the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon. What experience did you have training or using it for that purpose?

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Kurt! Hi Folks!

"the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon"?

That was not what we had planned or trained to use it as. Execpt for that one trip up to the Baltic Coast, all the training and live firing we did was direct fire engagements. AFAIK, we were the only Scout Section to ever go up to that AAA range from all of the 7th US Army. During all of the Scout Section eval's that I took part in none of them had any aerial target action.

As for AAA training, we all received the basic Warsaw Pack equipment ID training that every soldier received along with basic aircraft engagements SOP. I would not call that advanced in anyway.

During the live firing at the AAA range, we were all doing it by OJT. We started out using five rounds fast, dropped back to five rounds slow, and then single shot. We would get a single hit from time to time, but none of us could get a second hit on the target. One day a Armored Branch Colonel from 7th Army stop by to check us out. He was a good freind of our Battalion Commander and had help get the approval to do this. We told him how we had been doing and he watched a number of engagements. That Colonel saw that we were having two problems. One was the speed ring aircraft engagment sight. It was messing up our first shot because it was hard to see the target through that plexiglass. He told us to remove it and use the front sight post and Kentucky windage. The second problem was the muzzle blast. It was so big and thick that it blocked the gunner's view of the tracer and make it very hard to get the next round on target. He told us to try using BOT with a second soldier acting as the spotter standing up and hanging off the back side of the TC's hatch. In no time at all everyone of us were able to make multiple hits during each pass.

There were three classes of targets:
An AT-6 Texan was the slow target tug. Most guys were getting 5 to 6 hits per pass.
A OV-10 Bronco was the medium speed target tug. Most were getting 4 to 5 hits per pass.
A Fiat G-91 Jet (that Fiat bird that looks a lot like a F-86 Saber Jet) was the fast target. Most of us got 2 hits per pass and we had two guys who made 3 hits. The big problem with the fast target was it crossed our range fan to fast. We had to stop shooting because it exited our left or right firing limits before we could get off more rounds.

"the 20mm was supposed to be an AAA weapon".

In my live fire experience with the M-139 20mm and standing near the M-61 20mm Vulcan during both aerial and direct fire engagments I would say:
The M-139 20mm is a anti-light armored vehicle weapon system with a VERY LIMITED ability to hit aerial targets. That M-139 is NOT a AAA weapon.

The M-61 20mm Vulcan IS an AAA weapon system with a VERY POOR ability to use the ammo on a ground target. It takes way to long to reload the magazine on that system.

In many books the M-2 HB 50 cal. MG is reported to be mounted on the top of many AFVs as an ANTI-AIRCRAFT weapon. That is pure BS. Not once during my time as an 11D Armored Scout was any aircraft engagement training ever done with the M-2. During the times I was supporting tank gunner quals with M-551s and M-60A1s, all 50 cal engagments were ground targets. There were never any aerial targets.

Just because a book says a weapon is an AAA gun, doesn't make it so.
A lot of my old history and a pocket full of pennys.
Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:17 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy

Neat stuff.

In many books the M-2 HB 50 cal. MG is reported to be mounted on the top of many AFVs as an ANTI-AIRCRAFT weapon. That is pure BS. Not once during my time as an 11D Armored Scout was any aircraft engagement training ever done with the M-2. During the times I was supporting tank gunner quals with M-551s and M-60A1s, all 50 cal engagments were ground targets. There were never any aerial targets.


In the mid-80's while shooting a CALFEX at Graf Rg 301, we were presented two aerial targets for the Vulcan crew. The targets were scaled Soviet fast attack fighters (Foam RC planes).

We attempted to engage with .50cals,......what a waste of ammo!! 4 tanks firing .50cal into the sky!! 'Sky Sweepers' one and all, but nowhere close to the figure '8' flying attack aircraft. Anytime someone got close, the ammo box ran empty and loaders scrambled to reload the 'ma deuce'. (I was one such loader....)

The vulcan was initially worse with short bursts, but finally 'ambushed' the target aircraft after 5 or 10 passes. (!?) So much for confidence in the ol' 'Duck Hunters' on a tactical level.

So your assessment of the M-2 .50cal as a AAA weapon is realistic,.....total BS. (although decent against helicopters).

Awesome, 'unwritten' history lesson. Thanks

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Folks!

Something I forgot to bring up about the differences between the M-139 on a M-114 and the M-61 Vulcan on a M-113. The Vulcan carrier has a suspension lock out system. The driver has a lever he uses to lock the ten road wheel arms at the top of the arm. That makes a big differeance with the second and all follow on rounds.

During a Mech Infantry Bn TF "Mad Minute" at Hohenfels Training Area, with a platoon of M-60A2s and a pair of Vulcans, I had a long range target engagment experience with that same M-139/M-114 we had taken to the AAA range. The area on the firing line were my M-114 was had an old hull down trench for a M-113 size vehicle. I had my driver park the vehicle across the ditch with the sprockets resting on one bank and the idler wheels resting on the other bank. The four road wheels where hanging in the air. There were two 75mm Sherman hard targets around 1,200 yards down range that were in line with each other and about 200 yards apart. Using five round fast burst, I found an aimming point short (starting with AP) of the near Sherman that had the second round (AP again) hitting the first tank, the third round (HE) landing about mid-way between the two, the four round (HE) hitting the second tank and the fifth round (HE) going over it. I was able to do that a number of times as long as I started with an AP round in the chamber.

That was when I learned that the Vulcan made a poor system for engaging ground targets. Watching those Duck Hunters reload that magazine was a amazing. They had the ramp down and a number of ammo cans lined up with the belts linked together. Even with that prep, it took a couple of minutes to reload the magazine. Then they did it a second time when they reloaded the system with dummy ammo.

Something I learned about the Vulcan system during my time in Germany is that system is ALWAYS LOADED. If the magazine doesn't have live ammo it must have dummy ammo. The Vulcan has an interupter switch with an override button if the last set of rounds MUST BE FIRED just like the M-139. While the M-139 was a pain to position a new round in the feeder and it took a couple of minutes, the Duck Hunters told me that they had to have Direct Support open their system up and install a belt of rounds between the interupter switch position in the magazine and the weapon's receiver. They also told me it was a battalion level Article 15 (for you non-US Military types, not a good thing to have in your personal folder) if a gunner used that over ride button during training.

Some more of my old history and a few more cents.
Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Thanks Roy!

I have a mid-70's Training Circular that gives a more realistic plan and philosophy for "amateur" AA fire. In it they give simple rules for leading jets, props, and choppers regardless of the weapon being used. The philosophy was pretty reasonable, essentially, everyone should fire their weapons at attacking aircraft, not because you are likely to shoot them down or even hit them, but because the fear of the "Golden BB" is the best deterrent/distraction there is to a pilot. Anything you can do to knock him off his line is worth it because it might save your life.

I'm guessing that mentions of AA roles for various weapons in TMs was mainly to inform crews that you COULD shoot them upward . . .

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Hi Kurt! Hi Folks!

- Kurt_Laughlin

I have a mid-70's Training Circular that gives a more realistic plan and philosophy for "amateur" AA fire. In it they give simple rules for leading jets, props, and choppers regardless of the weapon being used. The philosophy was pretty reasonable, essentially, everyone should fire their weapons at attacking aircraft, not because you are likely to shoot them down or even hit them, but because the fear of the "Golden BB" is the best deterrent/distraction there is to a pilot. Anything you can do to knock him off his line is worth it because it might save your life.

I'm guessing that mentions of AA roles for various weapons in TMs was mainly to inform crews that you COULD shoot them upward . . .
KL


That "amateur, Golden BB" plan was the basic engagment training that I was talking about.

During my time out in the bush in Vietnam there were many times we had restrictions on which weapons and directions that we could fire. It didn't matter what was coming in, those restrictions protected other troopers.

A number of years later during a FTX at Hohenfels the Scout Platoon was on Castle Guard and the Battalion Command post was attacked by some West German F-104 Starfighters. Everybody cut lose at those planes using the "amateur, Golden BB" idea. It was a lot of fun at the time and it made the controllers happy.

Later I remembered those engagment restirictions during my time in Vietnam and it dawned on me that this "wild firing" by everyone is crazy! All the rules of engagment and fields of fire go out the window. There were two Redeye teams protecting the CP. They have a chance of hitting something where the "wild firing" has a greater chance of hitting someone on the ground.

After that the first thing I though about was the current rules of engagment and clear fields of fire before I opened up. That "amateur, Golden BB" SOP maybe dangerous for aircraft, but it is a greater danger to other troops.

Sense we have driffed off into the world of weapons and AAA training I have a questions for all you M-60 and M-1 tankers.

Did any of you ever get any training on using the main gun and sabot on aircraft?

Some more old history and few more cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:51 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

Roy

The engagement criteria for aircraft was stricty .50cal. In the simulators there was never a fast mover target presented only rotary aircraft (choppers). That is supposed to be a TC's .50cal engagement only.

Main gun engagement was always discussed but not considered 'exceptable' to training standards.

"Ambushing" a fast mover with main gun was real problematic, so someone decided to 'fill the sky with lead' (COAX & .50cal) and that was considered to be the standard.

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

I remember on Challenger we were taught about using sabot against helicopters, but I don't remember anything about engaging airplanes.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: M114 'Lingle' background info

The HEAT-MP 120mm round has or was supposd to have an AA capability.

I asked last year about an AA capability for the Shilleagh. I guess the same thing would apply to TOW . . . I believe it was tested for air-to-air when first mounted on choppers.

On the other end, in ODS an A-10 used a Maverick missile (a near supersonic ASM with a 300 lb explosive charge that is capable of destroying an MBT by kinetic energy alone) to destroy an Iraqi helicopter. The pilot's quote was that the helicopter "sort of just disappeared."

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum