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NTC Desert Guard 87
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:04 pm
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

The Dreaded turn in at NTC,
I have both good and bad experiences at the place. Good being how my troops performed under such unrealistic expectations. Bad in how STUPID and wasteful the whole system was set up. My last few times there I pretty much resigned myself to the fact that whatever you drew it was crap. The funny part was near the end the equipment (M1's) were actually better than what we had at home. Newer too. Shortly after Desert Storm NTC got a bunch of M1's in that came from deactivated units. Pretty nice stuff but you would find some strange surprises in odd loations when you took them apart, let us say some folks hid things hoping to get stuff back from theater, finding out later that they would not get the same tank back in the states. I saw my first Pulse Jet air cleaner system there (only place I had it), experienced my first AIM M1 too. I think the saddest thing about the whole draw and turn in set up at NTC was that it forced soldiers to do a lot of shady underhanded things in order to turn in a tank. We called it "Yuck" maintenance. You didn't fix it right, you just rigged it to pass the inspector. You didn't care as long as you got rid of the vehicle, it was now the next guys problem. I actully witnessed the rigging of a Driver's instument panel so it would read full when the power was on to keep from draining and replacing the fuel sensors in the tanks. The crew RTV'd the botton 2 inches of the cones so if the inspector checked the level from the fuel caps it look full. That's what happens when they all of a sudden say "Oh by the way, you now need to change out the sensors, sorry." after saying it was ok earlier. Another really stupid thing they would do is make you sit and wait for parts on back order. The part usually being some insignificant pin or do-hicky that would take all of 5 minutes to install by an operator. All they had to do is just put the part in the tank and let the next crew install it when they came in. I can't remember the wise officer who quoted "NTC is the Army's official Hazing, you don't get much out of it except the fact that you can say you did it" Why else would you still be issued shelter halves. When's the last time you've seen US soldiers sleep in a pup tent when deployed. I will say one good thing about drawing a Tank though. It don't follow you home. I took a tank and spent about 2 months repairing it at home station because our priority for parts was zero.

Dontos, Debbie was alright, along with the group she worked with. It just takes one A--Hole in a position of authority and a grudge (usually a former soldier, kicked out for drugs/discipline) to mess it up for everyone. Jeff said it all.

Just a litte rant, NTC PTSD Smile

Joe D
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:48 pm
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

The 'Debbie' I knew there was Debbie Hayes. She was a turret mechanic.

It was my experience that the biggest A-holes there were the ones who had never been in the service. The vets had an idea what it was like in the Army but the non-vets were clueless. They should have only hired ex-army people.

It was BS awaiting the parts that never would come in. That should never have been done on non-deadline items.

While I was there I worked on M48A5, M60A1, M60A3 and M1(IP). Had some good times there but then I got to go home at night Smile

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

- MarkHolloway
The 'Debbie' I knew there was Debbie Hayes. She was a turret mechanic.

It was my experience that the biggest A-holes there were the ones who had never been in the service. The vets had an idea what it was like in the Army but the non-vets were clueless. They should have only hired ex-army people.

It was BS awaiting the parts that never would come in. That should never have been done on non-deadline items.

While I was there I worked on M48A5, M60A1, M60A3 and M1(IP). Had some good times there but then I got to go home at night Smile


I did rotations in...
Jan 86: A Co 2/5 CAV, 1st CAV: We took our M-1's. Oldest in the Army & none in Draw yard (yet)

July 90: C Co 3/70 AR, 5th ID: Drew IPM-1's 'fresh' from POMCUS. Decent Tank, extended rotation for World News Agencies.

June 93: C Co 3/8 Cav, 1st Cav Div: Drew A 'P.O.S.' M1A1. NBC System non-operational (circle X at Draw), 'Thermalized' Engine, Plow Tank.

May 98: HHC 2/12 Cav, 1st Cav Div: S-3 (House of Pain!!)

June 2000: D Co 2/12 Cav, 1st Cav Div: Drew 4- M1A1HA's. Several major deficencies, but a good rotation.

Regards,
Don
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Burik
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:12 pm
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

Interesting stories about turning in equipment... As probably most know, now the units bring their own equipment. I was told since units take much of their own equipment on deployment, they wanted to be able to bring it to the NTC as well, to be sure they were fighting with their own stuff both in practice and in reality.

No more of that doing just enought to get by stuff at the end of an NTC rotation. They have to take it back with them and take care of it at home.

However, nothing is absolute. When I was there recently with the 3rd ID I believe they were using mostly Humvees supplied by the NTC.

Bob
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:28 am
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

NTC was mostly issuing wheeled vehicles and trailers since most units bring their own armor with them now. The OPFOR's M1's were old, and were used only so the tankers amoung them could keep up on their skills by firing their Tank Tables for qualifications. Otherwise the M1's just sat in the motor pools most of the time. MUCH more maintenance was applied to the old Sheridans, and latter OSV's than the M1's ever saw. Heck, the M1's weren't even deployed in 2005 with the 11th ACR, they drew pre-position stock in theater. The Mortar tracks on the other hand were deployed but once in theater, were used in FOB/Firebase support. That was only half the platoon, (a section). The other half were given Hummers and used as bridge/road guards in and around Abu-Garib area. While a few others helped train Iraqi forces.
Before being stationed at NTC from July 2002 thru June 2006, I did 6 rotations as "Blufor" between 1986 and 2002. Two with 24th ID, one with 3rd ID, 2 with 4th ID, and the one mentioned before with the Ohio National Guard, (I was actually a OPFOR augmentee then).
Many, many stories both good and sad to tell. I was there when the three scout Bradley's from HHC 2-7IN, 24th ID went over the cliff at night and killed the platoon sergeant and platoon leader. The MSG was less than a year from retirement and the 1LT was one of the most liked officers in the company. Eleven other soldiers were badly injured in the roll-overs and medivac'd.
Enough blabbing for now.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

- Burik
Interesting stories about turning in equipment... As probably most know, now the units bring their own equipment. I was told since units take much of their own equipment on deployment, they wanted to be able to bring it to the NTC as well, to be sure they were fighting with their own stuff both in practice and in reality.

No more of that doing just enought to get by stuff at the end of an NTC rotation. They have to take it back with them and take care of it at home.

However, nothing is absolute. When I was there recently with the 3rd ID I believe they were using mostly Humvees supplied by the NTC.

Bob


The 'take your own stuff' has been wrestled with for years.

The Deploy & Draw replicates Cold War ideas and then the pre-stocks fowardly stored. With Heavy forces, You just can't get there fast enough. This gets a sizeable force into 'harms way' to delay for the follow on force.

Cost of transportation became a strong motive (as I understand the roots of 'Deploy & Draw')

In 1998 & 2000, I was in a 'K4' (M1A2) tank Bn. We had to retro- train young soldiers on the M1A1's who only had experience on M1A2's. As well as re-learn ourselves. When returning to home station, we had to relearn the M1A2.

I won't even go into our return from Bosnia, not having been on M1A2's for almost a year.....(ouch!!!)

Anyway, taking your stuff, has its benefits. Not all positive, since home station vehicles did't get any sort of parts priority. It gets broke at NTC, it may stay broke at home station.

Don
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

- SFC_Jeff_Button


....Many, many stories both good and sad to tell. I was there when the three scout Bradley's from HHC 2-7IN, 24th ID went over the cliff at night and killed the platoon sergeant and platoon leader. The MSG was less than a year from retirement and the 1LT was one of the most liked officers in the company. Eleven other soldiers were badly injured in the roll-overs and medivac'd.
Enough blabbing for now.


Jeff

Was that in a 'Heavy / Light rotation in 1993? Something similiar happened to the follow-on rotation when I was with 1st Cav Div rotation in July 93.

In 2000, my Companies supply truck 'rolled' off the 'escarpment'. It got plowed over a cliff by a fuel Hemmit that lost its brakes. No fatalities, but supply asst was crushed when thrown out of driver seat, causing total paralysis from neck down.

Enough depressing stuff....
Don
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tanker2010
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Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:43 am
Post subject: Re: NTC Desert Guard 87

Well, I guess if we are going to play blasts from the past, here's one, "Mojave Chief" `79. Irwin wasn't the NTC you all learned to love yet. We were out there for 6 weeks. I was a F.O. for C Btry. 1/20FA 4ID, when they were still at Carson. We had to draw a bunch `o junk from 40ID CAARNG. 13B's, while some nice guys, are sometimes not the brightest bulbs in the box. We were the only Btry that didn't bring our own vehicles. So the Gunbunnies had to draw M109's from 40ID. When I say M109's, I'm talking about M109A0's...short tube like in`Nam. Our guys had M109A1's, with the longer tube, back at Carson. So they go out to shoot. They set up their nets, which are these ancient burlap things from like WWII, that came with the guns. They set them up like they always did back at Carson. Anyone see this one coming yet? Well, anyway, they get a fire mission. First gun shoots, and you guessed it...net burst into flames. I think I may be paraphrasing here, but it was something like"Oh sh**! These things have shorter tubes. Didn't think about that". I was driving a XM577 that had been re-built in Bobbligen Germany in `68, and yes it was a gasser. Manage to seperate both the heads on the engine. Some real yuckster blew my trimvane off by setting a bangolor off a little to close to my track. Saw a M48A5 out there with a name I really liked, "Israeli Edsel". Oh, did I mention I got out to Irwin and back from Carson driving a M151A2? We were out there when they took the embassey in Iran. So by virtue of being at Irwin at that point in time, we became the most desert trained unit in the Army, and was attached to XVIII Airborne Corp for about 5 days incase we went to war that week.Oh well, a fun time was had by all.
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