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What model of Sherman is this one?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:10 pm
Post subject: What model of Sherman is this one?

http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_itemId=281

[img]http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=281&g2_serialNumber=5[/img]

http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_itemId=448

[img]http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=448&g2_serialNumber=3[/img]

This is a war monument displayed somewhere in India.

Is it a British WW2 "funnie"?

Or more likely a post-war Indian or Pakistani conversion?
The Sherman fought on both sides of the Second Kashmir War and Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.

P-O

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:45 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

well, that's indeed a Sherman M4A4 Crab on which the half of the flails system is missing...

P-O

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

Ah, now I see

The crossmember between the 2 arms is not an original part of the construction
It is just there to connect the 2 arms

Was allready wondering, if it would be an Sherman Crab, how this with intervene with the chains of the drum

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:15 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

- Michel_Krauss
Ah, now I see

The crossmember between the 2 arms is not an original part of the construction
It is just there to connect the 2 arms

Was allready wondering, if it would be an Sherman Crab, how this with intervene with the chains of the drum

Michel


Actually the construction you see is what supported the flail device or rather supported the plates that carried the flail device. The image following is of the production prototype which I suspect that vehicle may possibly be.


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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:41 am
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=595&g2_serialNumber=1

[img]http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=595&g2_serialNumber=1[/img]

and for this Sherman?? The gun is very unusual and doesn't fit with the ones I know, even for other AFVs..

The camouflage is also very unusual !!!


P-O

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:46 am
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

Its a captured Pakistani vehicle. The gun (from a PT-76) is in the recoil position so it looks a bit strange. AFIK there were very few of them and they were used to beef up reconnaissance units based in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh).

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

I have seen this green camouflaged Sherman before, only the picture quality then was not so good

Cann't remimber where precise..... Confused

Michel

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

and for this Sherman?? The gun is very unusual and doesn't fit with the ones I know, even for other AFVs..


I'd say it's a museum hack. It's a M4A4 that's had a PT76 gun barrel welded in. Pakistan didn't have M4A4s, they had M4A1E4s (regunned with the 76MM) most with the E9 suspenssion. India did have M4A4s that were left behind from the British. Most the mods are of British origin used in the CBI. It's just something thrown together.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

- tanker2010
and for this Sherman?? The gun is very unusual and doesn't fit with the ones I know, even for other AFVs..


I'd say it's a museum hack. It's a M4A4 that's had a PT76 gun barrel welded in. Pakistan didn't have M4A4s, they had M4A1E4s (regunned with the 76MM) most with the E9 suspenssion. India did have M4A4s that were left behind from the British. Most the mods are of British origin used in the CBI. It's just something thrown together.


relics.warbirds.in/mai...itemId=581

relics.warbirds.in/mai...rd=Sherman

and I could quote a long stream of articles, books etc...

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:28 am
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

and I could quote a long stream of articles, books etc...


Then get busy. Let's look at facts. Besides Pakistan not using M4A4s, never let the facts get in the way of a good story, it's a museum piece in an Indian museum. Museums are notorious for either getting it wrong or just plain playing with the facts. As to Pakistan supposedly using it, why would they re-gun a tank with an inferior gun than the one it had? Plus the fact that Pakistan didn't even have PT76s, that was a vehicle used by the Indians. If you have in service pics of Pakistani M4A4s with the gun out of a PT76, post away, other than that, sorry got to call BS on you. Showing pics of tanks in a museum proves nothing.

relics.warbirds.in/mai...itemId=765

This could be a captured Pakistani Sherman, or not, both sides used M4A1s.

While the Indians used M4A1s, M4A3s, and M4A4s, the Pakistanis used only M4A1s. Beside all that, if you want to believe the plaque by the tank, it says it was captured in the Sialkot sector of Pakistan. That is in Pakistan proper, not in what is known now as Bangledesh.
So start listing your books....
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:53 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

Okay I had a real long rebuttal written here then I thought why the hell should I do your research as you obviously too damn lazy to do it yourself...

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

Thanks for the offer Jim, but having seen your site, I'll do my own. It's ok to be wrong, no one is going to think the less of you. You see, if you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll admit it, but a bunch of attitude doesn't prove anything.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

This thread is locked pending discussion and course of action in the Moderator's Forum.

It is very disappointing when informed members cannot disagree in a cordial and polite manner.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:16 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

This thread is re-opened after a cooling off period.

Admins have decided that we prefer not to set a precedent for suspension (which has never happened, apart from spammers), but do want to post a warning:

Profanity directed against another member or dismissing their claims without reference is not acceptable. Neither is ignoring requests from any of the moderator staff to re-evalute one's posting style. It's fine to disagree (even encouraged), but if you're going to disagree, do it with tact and facts, not snide remarks and thinly (or non) veiled hostility. In CC forums, we call that 'flaming' and it's not allowed or tolerated here. Standards of behavior vary with different forums, but that is irrelevant. The membership has established by history and example what the acceptable tone for discourse here is, and the moderators are charged with enforcing it. We are also invited guests at C-C, and will act accordingly. The door in is always open, as is the door out.

Please carry on.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: What model of Sherman is this one?

Thanks Doug.

Pierre-Olivier

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