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Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 6:56 pm
Post subject: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Camp Mabry? Restored and on display?

www.msc.navy.mil/seali...r/tank.htm
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

I have no info on it - I'll list it as stored?

Neil
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:10 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Indulge me the moral high ground, but how arrogant of any visiting military force to pillage a national artifact! Whatever is in the country, belongs to that country - "abandoned" or not. There is no detail in the story about where the tank was found. Whoever left it there, did so for reasons unknown to the finders.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:26 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

First off, if its a US tank, it may still technically be US property - or at the least US approval is necessary for its transfer (re-export) to any other military forces than the original end-user. I highly suspect "Yugoslavia" did not request its transfer to the Bosnian Serb forces and were technically in violation of the original MDAP agreement...

Secondly there's the issue of the rights accorded to IFOR, and then SFOR, under the Dayton Agreement - which were rather wide-ranging. If not full occupying power rights, as fell to the OIF forces in Iraq for example...

Neil
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:37 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

I think the problem lies in the 'misreported' article. I don't think it was just taken.

Having served in Bosnia during SFOR 5 (1999), I know of at least two tank destroyers that came out of Bosnia, and there was never an official mention of the facts of the deal. The US paid (literally) for the transfer of the Tank Destroyers.

The vehicles were part of the Bosnian Serb stored equipment that was considered 'excess' and the Bosnian Govt was more than happy to be rid of them. It meant that they were no longer the responsibility of the RS to be stored or accounted for and it was a gesture that the RS was attempting to 'disarm' in the face of the Dayton Accords.

The M47 looks to be in excellent condition, and I seriously doubt it was anything close to having been abandoned and sitting 'in the bushes'. More likely 'donated' by the local Weapon Storage site commander for a modest fee that perhaps went to pay the local soldiers.

I was at Camp Demi, south of Camp McGovern and I doubt any tanks were overlooked in that area (located near Brcko, a seriously contested area along the Zone Of Seperation or ZOS.)

JMHO
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Don
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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:44 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Indulge me the moral high ground, but how arrogant of any visiting military force to pillage a national artifact! Whatever is in the country, belongs to that country - "abandoned" or not.


Ok, let me get this straight, you're going to rag on the U.S. for intervening in a country that was killing and raping it's own population and some how we are the bad guys for taking back something that belonged to the U.S. to begin with? I would hardly consider a M47 LOANED to them as a national artifact. They have several "national artifacts" in the Great White North that your military has brought back from around the world. How arrogant is that? You have a unique perspective on the world.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

I'm sorry I asked in the first place. Rolling Eyes

The overall tone that this thread has assumed is not a welcome one. FYI, "Maple_Leaf_Eh", the "moral high ground" is not being ceded to anybody, least of all to someone who's post was unnecessarily confrontational.

I suggest all parties desist unless they have documentation to offer that further enlightens the issue. Thus far, Neil and especially Don have done the best job of making the situation more clear.
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Any ideas about the user of this M47? The ''same'' camo pattern I have seen on M18s of the Vojska Federacia (VF) of BIH in 2003. These vehicles had r/ns ending with a B or a C (for example VF-0014B). IIRC the last letter indicated if it was a Bosnian or Bosnian/Croat unit.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:26 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

- L.Delsing
Any ideas about the user of this M47? The ''same'' camo pattern I have seen on M18s of the Vojska Federacia (VF) of BIH in 2003. These vehicles had r/ns ending with a B or a C (for example VF-0014B). IIRC the last letter indicated if it was a Bosnian or Bosnian/Croat unit.



Lesley,
Is THAT what the M18 is?! I got that pic from somewhere myself, cropped, darkened and used as my desktop for years. I thought it was from the Ardennes or something. Just created my own reality for the context.

Regards,
Doug
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:42 am
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

It is taken near Glamoc (BiH) in the vicinity of grid N44 04.453 E016 49.620. The camp NE of that grid we had parked our tanks and the M18, which were used as hard target were parked in the vicinity of the grid. The picture is taken from the turret of my tank when driving to the range. It was ''horizontal effect snow'' at that moment.

It looked like the ardennes, driving in German tanks, mountainous terrain, cold, snow and shooting at the ''enemy'' which were the M18s Wink




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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Any ideas about the user of this M47?


As pointed out, it's not a M47 it's a M18. In the group of pictures the second one is a M36.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

- tanker2010
Any ideas about the user of this M47?


As pointed out, it's not a M47 it's a M18. In the group of pictures the second one is a M36.


I think Lesley was asking about the user of the M47 at the start of this thread because it has a similar camo scheme to the M18 he shows in Bosnia.

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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

Yes, that is correct Trevor.

regards
Lesley
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

- Doug_Kibbey

I thought it was from the Ardennes or something. Just created my own reality for the context.

Regards,
Doug


Something like this..... Wink



Regards
Don
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Did this M47 eventually reach it's destination...

- Dontos

Something like this..... Wink


Regards
Don


Don,
This, actually. On a black background, it's just chilling.
D.

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