±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 388
Total: 388
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Photo Gallery
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: News Archive
13: Home
14: News Archive
15: Home
16: Home
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Member Screenshots
21: Home
22: Downloads
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Downloads
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Downloads
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: News Archive
33: Home
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Member Screenshots
39: Community Forums
40: Downloads
41: Photo Gallery
42: Member Screenshots
43: Community Forums
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Member Screenshots
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Downloads
64: Member Screenshots
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Member Screenshots
68: Your Account
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: News Archive
77: Member Screenshots
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Downloads
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Home
87: Home
88: Member Screenshots
89: Home
90: Home
91: Member Screenshots
92: Home
93: Member Screenshots
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Home
100: Downloads
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: News Archive
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Home
116: Home
117: Downloads
118: Home
119: News Archive
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Member Screenshots
127: Member Screenshots
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Member Screenshots
131: Downloads
132: News
133: Community Forums
134: Downloads
135: Home
136: Your Account
137: Member Screenshots
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: News Archive
145: Downloads
146: Member Screenshots
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: News Archive
151: Community Forums
152: Member Screenshots
153: Member Screenshots
154: Home
155: Home
156: Member Screenshots
157: Your Account
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: News Archive
161: Home
162: Member Screenshots
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Member Screenshots
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Home
172: Home
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Photo Gallery
179: Downloads
180: Search
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Home
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Downloads
187: Home
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Tell a Friend
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Home
195: News Archive
196: Photo Gallery
197: News Archive
198: Home
199: News Archive
200: Home
201: Home
202: Photo Gallery
203: Downloads
204: Home
205: Member Screenshots
206: Statistics
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Downloads
217: News Archive
218: Community Forums
219: Member Screenshots
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: News Archive
225: Home
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Your Account
229: Home
230: Downloads
231: Member Screenshots
232: Member Screenshots
233: Home
234: Home
235: Home
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Downloads
241: Member Screenshots
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: News Archive
251: Member Screenshots
252: Your Account
253: Member Screenshots
254: Home
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Member Screenshots
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Photo Gallery
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Home
281: Home
282: Photo Gallery
283: Community Forums
284: Member Screenshots
285: News Archive
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Downloads
292: Home
293: Home
294: Member Screenshots
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Home
302: Home
303: Home
304: Home
305: Home
306: Home
307: News Archive
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Home
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Home
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Member Screenshots
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Statistics
328: Home
329: News Archive
330: Community Forums
331: News Archive
332: Home
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Member Screenshots
346: Member Screenshots
347: Home
348: Home
349: Home
350: Home
351: Home
352: News Archive
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Member Screenshots
357: Tell a Friend
358: Home
359: Home
360: Home
361: Home
362: Home
363: Home
364: Home
365: Photo Gallery
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Downloads
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Member Screenshots
385: Community Forums
386: News Archive
387: Home
388: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question over Current Directx 10 Cards! :: Archived
Resolve issues with your computer problems here or read about the latest computer parts and information.
Post new topic    Revive this topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  Hardware

Topic Archived View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Adrian_Wainer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 03, 2006
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:23 pm
Post subject: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

It seems that current Directx 10 cards may not be able to take advantage of the proposed enhanced Directx 10 for FSX.

Quote
Mr Taylor,
Would you please comment on the truthfulness of the stories currently circulating that suggest the new DX10.1 version of DirectX won't work with DX10 hardware - such as the GeForce 8800 or the Radeon 2900 series of graphics cards? It is being suggested that the 10.1 revision will require completely new hardware for support, as well Vista SP1 and developer implementation.

Surely this cannot be true?

NC
UnQuote

Quote
I believe the point is subtler than that.

To get access to the 10.1 features ( which iirc is either finer-grained scheduling/interruptability and lower level virtual paging control for virtual texturing or both ) you will need 10.1 hw.

just like 9.0c runs on 9 hw but without access to the 2.0a or 2.0b shader models defined after 9.0, 10.1 will run on 10.0 hw. you just wont get access to the new features.

its physically impossible to add new features to a chip already on a board, but that doesnt mean the new runtime wont run at all. for that matter, the 9.0 runtime ran on 8.x hw, just with access to only the 1.x shader models.


Senior PM, Graphics and Terrain
Aces Studio, MGS
UnQuote

forums.avsim.net/dcboa...&mode=full

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Back to top
View user's profile
JG300-Stoopy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 5840
Location: Group W bench
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

It seems that current Directx 10 cards may not be able to take advantage of the proposed enhanced Directx 10 for FSX.


I followed that discussion too (well, as long as I could while the discussion was interesting) and as Phil Taylor says, it's a subtle point - which can easily confuse or mislead folks when it's re-summarized in one simple sentence.

My take on it is this (and please feel free to correct me):

1. there is the upcoming DirectX version 10.0 for Vista, which is for Vista only and not Win XP.

2. In conjunction, there is DirectX version 10.0 hardware available now, which has been designed per the agreed-upon specifcations of DirectX 10.0 (working with the hardware vendors) and which must precede the software work, since other wise the DirectX 10 developers won't have DirectX 10 hardware to run their DX10 update on to make sure it works and all before they issue it with Vista SP1.

3. So when DirectX 10.0 ships in Vista SP1, it will have been vetted with the hardware and drivers currently available which have been designed for it - DirectX 10.0 hardware.

4. At some point in the future, they'll add more "stuff" to DirectX 10 and call it 10.1. Some of that stuff will be designed to rely on hardware improvements not available now (DirectX 10.1-compatible Video cards, etc).

5. Development of DirectX 10.1 'stuff' will follow the same logical path - hardware first, then software, for the same reason that DirectX 10.0 hardware had to precede DirectX 10.0 software.

6. So shortly after the DX10.1 hardware and drivers are out, the DIrectX 10.1 update - for Vista - will follow.

7. The DirectX 10.1 update for Vista will STILL continue to work like DX10.0 on DirectX 10.0 hardware. The DX10.1 update just won't be able to turn on or use the newer features that require the accomodating DX10.1 hardware changes, because that newer DX10.1 chipset 'stuff' isn't on the older hardware.

8. That 'stuff' includes "either finer-grained scheduling/interruptability and lower level virtual paging control for virtual texturing or both."

9. And as far as current flight sim development (read: FSX) there are *NO* plans to implement any of this 'stuff' into the FSX code anyway. So FSX itself (which is what the discussion is in directly related to) also will not use the new DX10.1 stuff' in the hardware, nor in the DX10.1 update, nor any combination thereof, anyway.

So any 'stuff' that's planned to be in DX10.1 and which requires hardware support, won't be turned on or used by FSX even if you held off and waited to get that DX10.1 card and DX10.1 update that has stuff that DX10.0, and FSX even with DX10.1, won't use. Maybe (surely) some other generation will use these features (for whatever they do and benefit they may or may not bring), like FSXI or XII or CFS4 or 5 or IL2:1947 or some other future product down the road.

Now, I believe I got that right since I did not see any solid, quotable information from the developer indicating otherwise.

In the end it seems very much like a non-issue at least in terms of the product being discussed (FSX) - in that the thing being talked about (DX10.1) won't be used by the other thing being talked about (FSX). And on top of that, the new thing (DX10.1 Vista update) will run on the old thing (DX10.0 hardware) and the other thing (FSX) still won't care because it doesn't use the .1 stuff, just the .0 stuff.

Phil Taylor as been very clear and stated that the upcoming DX10 update for FSX is being written, and will remain, at the DX10.0 level.

But it certainly can be pared down and phrased without supporting detail to make it sound like a lot bigger deal than it is.

What do you think?

_________________
"Once your reputation is ruined, you can live quite freely."
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Shades
Forum Tree-Rat

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 6475
Location: 3rd Branch up, 'Ye Olde Oak', Green Wood.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

A friend of mine is professionally involved in software development and testing for a rather big software house.

A while ago I asked him why programmers / developers don't take account of older harderware / software to make things backwards compatable.

He gave me an interesting reply with a take which I hadn't considered previously:-



The I.T. world is evolving at such a rate now that product is released into the marketplace and, almost immediately, faults and bugs are being reported that there is no fix for.

Some are so bad that, when patches, upgrades, and newer versions are released, it is done in such a way as to force the user to upgrade the relevant soft/hardware to be able to use it properly.

This is sometimes the only way to stop bugs from propogating. And no design house is going to come out and say, "Erm, actually we screwed up on that last software release. You can use it but either it won't work properly or you'll need this other bit to get it to work."

But these gamers shouldn't fret too much - 10.1 adds virtually nothing that they will care about and, more to the point, adds almost nothing that developers are likely to care about. The spec revision basically makes a number of things that are optional in DX10 compulsory under the new standard - such as 32-bit floating point filtering, as opposed to the 16-bit current. 4xAA is a compulsory standard to support in 10.1, whereas graphics vendors can pick and choose their anti-aliasing support currently.

We suspect that the spec is likely to be ill-received. Not only does it require brand new hardware, immediately creating a miniscule sub-set of DX10 owners, but it also requires Vista SP1, and also requires developer implementation.

With developers struggling to justify including DX10 features in their games (see the recent comments by John Carmack and Mark Rein), they're going to be about as likely to further limit their product's market as they are to start developing NES games again. This is especially true given the incredibly limited benefits 10.1 is bringing to the party.

Simply put - if you're a developer, why bother with 10.1? Answers on a postcard, please.

_________________
Skwerl's place.

Com-Central's cutest, fluffiest, twitchiest, tail.
CPU > Intel i9-9900k (o/c 4.9GHz); COOLING > BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 4;
MOBO > ASUS PRIME Z390-A; RAM > 2x32GB Corsair LPX 2666MHz;
GPU > Gigabyte GEFORCE GTX650Ti PCI-e 3.0 2Gb GDDR5;
AUDIO > Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music (plus - Universal Audio UAD2 Quad Custom accelerator);
HDD > 3x1TB+ M.2. SSDs; LCD > DELL - S2419HGF (1920x1080);
PSU > 650W be quiet Straight Power 11 - 80+ Gold;
CASE > BeQuiet! SILENT BASE 601; OS > Windows 11 Home Advanced (64-bit).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
JG300-Stoopy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 5840
Location: Group W bench
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

That's a very good and succinct summary. The general yawnfest of what's actually brought to the table by the added DX10.1 features was also mentioned in the avsim thread above and the same answer given - basically "not worth implementation"...and without implementation there's no reason to upgrade.

_________________
"Once your reputation is ruined, you can live quite freely."
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
berlopez
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 263
Location: Copenhagen.DK
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

Sad I don't think I can benefit from this.
My Windoes Vista 32 system has a NVIDIA GeForce 7500 LE which If Iam corrects doesn 't support DX10 Crying or Very sad

_________________
Began simming with Fs2002 have developed my sim and computer skills with these.Dell Vostro 220,Penduim Dual Core E6300 2.8; 2.79 Ghz;3.00GB, Nvidia GeForce 7600GS; High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Pro. My old computer fried.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shades
Forum Tree-Rat

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 6475
Location: 3rd Branch up, 'Ye Olde Oak', Green Wood.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

- berlopez
I don't think I can benefit from this.
My Windoes Vista 32 system has a NVIDIA GeForce 7500 LE which If Iam corrects doesn 't support DX10
This means you probably will benefit.
Wink

_________________
Skwerl's place.

Com-Central's cutest, fluffiest, twitchiest, tail.
CPU > Intel i9-9900k (o/c 4.9GHz); COOLING > BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 4;
MOBO > ASUS PRIME Z390-A; RAM > 2x32GB Corsair LPX 2666MHz;
GPU > Gigabyte GEFORCE GTX650Ti PCI-e 3.0 2Gb GDDR5;
AUDIO > Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music (plus - Universal Audio UAD2 Quad Custom accelerator);
HDD > 3x1TB+ M.2. SSDs; LCD > DELL - S2419HGF (1920x1080);
PSU > 650W be quiet Straight Power 11 - 80+ Gold;
CASE > BeQuiet! SILENT BASE 601; OS > Windows 11 Home Advanced (64-bit).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
berlopez
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 263
Location: Copenhagen.DK
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

Smile Please explain, Sometime ago I discussed this topic, perhaps at another forum and I was explained that the Nvidia 7 series didn't support DX10, as I am running right now, with a lot of extra planes specially liveries, my frames are satisfactory, I am locked at 23 and get 18-19-20 on outside view; Could you explain the benefits? Tomorrow is my Birthday...I am not trying to catch up with Fled.

_________________
Began simming with Fs2002 have developed my sim and computer skills with these.Dell Vostro 220,Penduim Dual Core E6300 2.8; 2.79 Ghz;3.00GB, Nvidia GeForce 7600GS; High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Pro. My old computer fried.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shades
Forum Tree-Rat

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 6475
Location: 3rd Branch up, 'Ye Olde Oak', Green Wood.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

- berlopez
my frames are satisfactory
That's why.
There is some disatisfaction with DX10 and questions over its performance and potential.

HEY!
Happy Birthday.

You're about 82 years behind Fled, he still has a guy waving a red flag in front of his car when he goes shopping.


_________________
Skwerl's place.

Com-Central's cutest, fluffiest, twitchiest, tail.
CPU > Intel i9-9900k (o/c 4.9GHz); COOLING > BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 4;
MOBO > ASUS PRIME Z390-A; RAM > 2x32GB Corsair LPX 2666MHz;
GPU > Gigabyte GEFORCE GTX650Ti PCI-e 3.0 2Gb GDDR5;
AUDIO > Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music (plus - Universal Audio UAD2 Quad Custom accelerator);
HDD > 3x1TB+ M.2. SSDs; LCD > DELL - S2419HGF (1920x1080);
PSU > 650W be quiet Straight Power 11 - 80+ Gold;
CASE > BeQuiet! SILENT BASE 601; OS > Windows 11 Home Advanced (64-bit).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Uhu_Fledermaus
Aircraft Demolition Expert

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 28, 2004
Posts: 4369
Location: Blaricum, The Netherlands ~GMT+1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

I heard that tree rat sob !
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number MSN Messenger Photo Gallery
Shades
Forum Tree-Rat

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 07, 2005
Posts: 6475
Location: 3rd Branch up, 'Ye Olde Oak', Green Wood.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:24 am
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

heheh

Mr. Green

_________________
Skwerl's place.

Com-Central's cutest, fluffiest, twitchiest, tail.
CPU > Intel i9-9900k (o/c 4.9GHz); COOLING > BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 4;
MOBO > ASUS PRIME Z390-A; RAM > 2x32GB Corsair LPX 2666MHz;
GPU > Gigabyte GEFORCE GTX650Ti PCI-e 3.0 2Gb GDDR5;
AUDIO > Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music (plus - Universal Audio UAD2 Quad Custom accelerator);
HDD > 3x1TB+ M.2. SSDs; LCD > DELL - S2419HGF (1920x1080);
PSU > 650W be quiet Straight Power 11 - 80+ Gold;
CASE > BeQuiet! SILENT BASE 601; OS > Windows 11 Home Advanced (64-bit).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
berlopez
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 263
Location: Copenhagen.DK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: Question over Current Directx 10 Cards!

Hey Shades: Thanks.

I think I'll wait till the final results of DX 10 before I install, though my GC doesn't support it. Also I am having issues with SC since FSX like Fs9 doesn't like on boards, I have a Realtek high definition Audio, up to date. The Connie and CG-46 have awful sound.A common problem with these type of cards.Read it at avsim.com /forums.
I'll see when I get round to it... Yes I am running Vista, I don't know if I should update when it comes out, my card a 7 series doesn't support it...
I installed SP2 and my frames are satisfactory. I'm set 20 in my FSX.cfg and get 20 when I check (Shift+Z) My sound card though is still giving me... Rolling Eyes I have to press the "Q" key to make it change the sound; Otherwise it sounds like there is double sounds.

_________________
Began simming with Fs2002 have developed my sim and computer skills with these.Dell Vostro 220,Penduim Dual Core E6300 2.8; 2.79 Ghz;3.00GB, Nvidia GeForce 7600GS; High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Pro. My old computer fried.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Revive this topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  Hardware
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours

Archive Revive
Username:
This is an archived topic - your reply will not be appended here.
Instead, a new topic will be generated in the active forum.
The new topic will provide a reference link to this archived topic.