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New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:27 am
Post subject: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

I realized I hadnt posted anything about the new training support facilities... The FY16 National Defense Authorization Act signed by the President into law on 25 November includes $33M and $13.4M for "training support facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill respectively.
www.congress.gov/bill/.../1356/text

Details for the Army's plans for these facilities can be found at
asafm.army.mil/Documen...fh-hoa.pdf

The Fort Lee TSF is to be 120,000 square feet, including "classrooms, administrative areas, rest rooms, arms storage vault, consolidated entry and reception area, and climate controlled high-bay and standard height material storage areas... Special foundations are required... Access for individuals with disabilities will be provided."

"This project is required to provide Ordnance student training via lecture, practical application, and direct contact and interaction with ordnance devices and research. The facility is needed to support Soldier training to meet the Program of Instruction (POI) and related instructional requirements associated with the Ordnance School, and to make items available for research and development efforts to meet Soldier requirements."

Construction start was scheduled for April 2016, and completion April 2018.

I would note the centennial of the Ordnance Museum is in 2019.

Meanwhile, the Fort Sill TSF will be 56,000 square feet, including: "open high-bay vehicle storage space, offices, classrooms, latrines, arms room, consolidated entry and reception area... Special foundations are required... Access for persons with disabilities will be provided."

"This facility is required to house historical equipment and weapons used for Soldier training to meet the Program of Instruction (POI) and related instructional requirements associated with the Air Defense Artillery (ADA) School. It directly supports units providing indoor, environmentally controlled training/storage space for decommissioned large, historic, military weapons."

Constructed start scheduled for April 2016, completion October 2017.

Supposedly the Fort Benning (armor) TSF will be in the FY17 budget request.

Neil
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silviop15
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:51 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Great news, now lets hope they do not get cut back.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

The big open question is public access and whether they will be called "museums."

There was political opposition to this in the past, largely due to a certain SASC staffer. He is apparently gone, but I suspect the Army will be gun-shy on the subject for a while...

Neil
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silviop15
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

What is the story behind this "SASC Staffer"?
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

When the Army last requested MILCON for museum facilities a few years ago it ran into 2 problems: 1) They waited too long and requested regular MILCON instead of BRAC MILCON funds; 2) there was opposition in the SASC to using public funds for publicly-accessible museums, p*articularly from one staffer.

Supposedly there was some sort of agreement years ago that the government would no longer provided funds for building new publicly-accessible museums (as opposes to facilities needed for soldier training) and that private organizations would need to fund such museums (ie - like the National Museum of the Marine Corps). Supposedly the National Museum of the US Army was the sole exception to this ban, grandfathered in. Of course never mind that the Army had used public funds to build relocated museums under the prior BRAC rounds - see the Engineer / MP complex at Fort Leonard Wood, and the Women's Museum at Fort Lee, etc.

That being said, I have never seen this supposed agreement/ban in writing or law - for all I know it was a gentleman's agreement. Whether it is still in force I dont know...

I'll note that while the Ordnance Museum was rebranded the "Ordnance Training and Heritage Center" (in truth it never had the facilities to reopen museum as at Fort Lee), the ADA Museum never changed its name (it quickly reopened in borrowed facilities at Fort Sill) and AFAIK has no intention to...

Like I said before, 2019 is the centennial of the establishment of the Ordnance Museum - so fingers crossed.

I like to aspirationally think of it as the "Once and Future Ordnance Museum" Wink

Neil
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silviop15
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Hope for the best.
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Rick_Eshleman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort S

If this facility is built and labelled "Ordnance Training and Heritage Center" and all of the vehicles are housed in it would be great. Public access to the items there would help support the Ordnance Center. It doesn't have to be called a museum to display items, example: Carlisle US Army Heritage and Education Center. Public access, next to, but not in the Army War College, reasonable open hours, and not called a "museum". Thanks for the good news Neil.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Rick,
I'm pretty certain one that former directer Chris Semancik (back in the 2010-2012 timeframe when the museum/center went through 3 directors in 3 years), who also happened to be the former curator at the Army Heritage and Education Center at Carlisle, changed the name in part to avoid the "museum" controversy.

But like I said, the ADA Museum didnt change its name, and doesnt seem to see a need to.

At any rate, I'm also curious if they will put the new "TSF"/museum near/outside the front gate like the original plan c2007:





Neil
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Rick_Eshleman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:16 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Neil,
Thanks for the update and let's see if they finally will get this project started. In the lobby of the former Ordnance Museum was a sign mentioning the BRAC move to Ft. Lee, but I was also told back the that the former Ordnance Museum at APG would reopen in 2012-2013. We all know this did not occur. Please keep us updated on any new developments. Thanks, Rick
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Rick,
The first picture above is from that sign.

Neil
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Rick_Eshleman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:12 am
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort S

Neil, The sign I have is on same back board, but slightly different. I tried to post it here with no luck, but I posted it on my flickr account: www.flickr.com/Photos/brick6757 . The sign you show is much more detailed than mine. Rick
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Yep, that was the second sign - or other side of the sign?

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:48 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort Sill

Notice it said "move... to Fort Lee in May 2011"... It said nothing about opening LOL.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort S

I hope all will be finished and open to the public for my second trip to the USA Wink

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Garry_Redmon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: New "Training Support Facilities" at Fort Lee and Fort S

TSF for Benning was not approved for budget FY17. Have there been any press releases or official announcement from Lee or Sill about their TSFs?

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