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AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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clausb
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:08 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

First of all, I think I may need to point out that I'm not criticizing anyones use of nomenclature for German vehicles nor am I claiming that my usages is right and every one elses is wrong. I would rather prefer not to be seen as part of the crowd who search endlessly for "correct" or "official" names.

I just use the names I'm accustomed to.

- the_shadock
I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).


Works for me but what is more important is whether it works for you Smile

However, as Bob confirms, "Panzer IV/70" seems to be a well established name for the Jagdpanzer IV with the long 7,5cm L/70 gun in the general litterature about the vehicle. So, as you point out, it becomes a matter of whether you want to conform your nomenclature to litterature and cater for the armour afficionados or whether you want use more descriptive names that makes sense to the general public.

cbo
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clausb
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:03 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't seem an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name


I think the reason for the name has to be found deep inside the bowels of the somewhat byzantine German armour production planning in 1944.

It had been realized since 1943 that the Panzer IV was no longer up to scratch and had reached the end of its upgrade potential. As some may recall from Guderians memoirs, it was suggested early in 1943 to stop production of the Panzer IV and concentrate on Panthers and Tigers instead. Even though it came to nothing at the time because the loss of production in such a switch would be unbearable, it was a recurring theme all the way up to wars end.

There had since 1941 been speculations about amalgamating the Panzer III and IV and by early 1944 these speculations resulted in a project where a modernized Panzer IV hull with sloped armour was combined with some superior mechanical parts from the Panzer III and a new 54cm track combined with three boogies with each 2, larger, roadwheels for a total of 6 roadwheels pr. side. Called the Einheitsfahrgestell, orders had already been placed by summer 1944 for both tank and StuG/Jagdpanzer variants, when it was decided to drop production of the Panzer IV all together. In other words, all Panzer IV production should be redirected to production of the Jagdpanzer IV with the 7,5cm L/70 gun. In late summer, early autumn 1944, it was also decided to drop further development on the Einheitsfahrgestell for StuG/Jagdpanzer.

At this junction, it is worth noticing that German examinations of the T34/85 and IS-II in the summer of 1944 had lead to the conclusion that the Panzer IV was hopelessly outdated particularily in terms of firepower. Since it was not considered feasible to mount the 7,5cm L/70 gun in the Panzer IV turret, focus turned to the Jagdpanzer IV armed with this gun. At the former Panzer IV production plant at Vomag, they could easily turn Jagdpanzer IV production into production of the Jagdpanzer IV with the L/70 gun, but in order to get the only Panzer IV manufacturer, Nibelungenwerk in Austria, into the progam fast, it was decided to slap a Jagdpanzer IV-like superstructure on the standard Panzer IV hull to speed up production of Jagdpanzer IV/Panzer IVs with the 7,5cm L/70 gun. The design was carried out by Alkett, hence the "A" after the vehicles name.

To sum up: In the summer of 1944, it was decided to drop further development of the turreted Panzer IV and shift all production to Panzer IV based vehicles with fixed superstructures and the 7,5cm L/70 gun.

It was at this point in the story that Hitler dictated, that all "Sturmgeschütze" with the long 7,5cm L/70 gun should be known as "Panzer IV lang" with the appendix "V" for the Vomag vehicle and "A" for the Alkett vehicle. This then developed into the "Panzer IV/70 (V)" and "Panzer IV/70 (A)".

As we know, Panzer IV production continued right up to wars end, but these decisions did have an impact on Panzer IV production in 1944.

First of all, Krupp stopped Panzer IV production in January 1944 to start production of the Sturmgeschütz IV, a crash programme initiated by the bombing of Alketts StuG III production line.

Vomag started Jagdpanzer IV production in January 1944 as well and stopped production of the Panzer IV in May 1944, leaving Nibelungenwerke as the sole producer of Panzer IVs. Aside from a small drop in Panzer IV production in February 1944, it was maintained at around 300, which, given that Jagdpanzer IV and StuG IV production was also running at full speed, meant that the production of Panzer IV based vehicles rose significantly.

But when Nibelungenwerk started the production of the Panzer IV/70 (A), Panzer IV production of course dropped, as it was effectively redirected from the turreted vehicle to the non-turreted. Production of the turreted Panzer IV dropped from 300 a month to somewhere between 160 and 200 in the period from September 1944 to February 1945.

So the decisions made in the summer of 1944, which caused the somewhat peculiar disignation "Panzer IV" for at non-turreted vehicle, was to some extent implemented, resulting in a shift in production from the turreted tank to the StuG/Jagdpanzer types.

cbo
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the_shadock
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Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:28 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Very interesting readings indeed !!

By the way, I received a mail yesterday in which a photo-journalist who met Rex Cadman at the "War and Peace show" states that Rex told him :
"Rex at one time had five Panthers, three of which are now part of the Wheatcroft collection (1 Panther confirmed in Rex collection). He has the Panther I saw at War & Peace and has a complete running engine for this in one of his stores. He also has one of only three original Bergepanthers left in the world (confirmed), the other two being at Saumur and in Germany. He also has a Panzer IV (confirmed), a JagdPanzer IV, an original Hetzer, and three Flak 38s."

Very interested to know more about this !!

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
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Dontos
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Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:03 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.


I've found that Wikipedia is only as accurate as the individuals who submit changes, so it can be 'dead-on' accurate, or the 'SPARKIE SCALE of '10 up & 2 down' (Do the Math...)

If the subject matter is suported with defining documentation and links, it can be quite informative but if supported with obscure interpretations and lacking much factual documentation, be wary, and search around the 'NET'.

Don
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