±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 785
Total: 785
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Downloads
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Your Account
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Downloads
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Downloads
43: News
44: Downloads
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Downloads
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: Member Screenshots
62: Community Forums
63: CPGlang
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: News Archive
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: CPGlang
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Downloads
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Downloads
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Downloads
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Statistics
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Downloads
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Member Screenshots
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Your Account
143: Community Forums
144: Statistics
145: CPGlang
146: Home
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Photo Gallery
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: CPGlang
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: News
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Home
196: Photo Gallery
197: Your Account
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Downloads
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Downloads
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: News
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Downloads
248: Photo Gallery
249: Member Screenshots
250: Photo Gallery
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Photo Gallery
256: Member Screenshots
257: Your Account
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Downloads
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Downloads
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: News Archive
300: Community Forums
301: News
302: Community Forums
303: Statistics
304: Downloads
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Downloads
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Photo Gallery
316: Home
317: Downloads
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: News Archive
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Member Screenshots
330: Your Account
331: Your Account
332: News Archive
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Member Screenshots
337: CPGlang
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Your Account
341: Downloads
342: Community Forums
343: Home
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: CPGlang
348: Community Forums
349: CPGlang
350: Downloads
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Your Account
369: Community Forums
370: Downloads
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Statistics
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Downloads
385: Community Forums
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Your Account
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Downloads
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: CPGlang
405: CPGlang
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Downloads
411: Community Forums
412: Downloads
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: Photo Gallery
416: News Archive
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Your Account
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: CPGlang
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Downloads
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: CPGlang
434: News Archive
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: News Archive
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: CPGlang
448: Member Screenshots
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Downloads
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Home
473: Downloads
474: Community Forums
475: Downloads
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Member Screenshots
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: News
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Downloads
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Downloads
509: Photo Gallery
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Photo Gallery
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Member Screenshots
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: News
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Home
529: Downloads
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Photo Gallery
534: Member Screenshots
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Statistics
538: Member Screenshots
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Downloads
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Photo Gallery
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Downloads
564: Photo Gallery
565: Downloads
566: Community Forums
567: Statistics
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Your Account
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Photo Gallery
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Member Screenshots
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Downloads
590: Downloads
591: Community Forums
592: Home
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Home
610: Photo Gallery
611: Community Forums
612: Home
613: Downloads
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Downloads
619: CPGlang
620: Community Forums
621: CPGlang
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Home
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Home
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Home
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Home
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Downloads
650: Photo Gallery
651: Photo Gallery
652: Downloads
653: Home
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Photo Gallery
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: CPGlang
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Home
670: Community Forums
671: Statistics
672: Photo Gallery
673: Home
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Community Forums
677: Home
678: Community Forums
679: Home
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Photo Gallery
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Photo Gallery
688: Photo Gallery
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Home
692: Home
693: Photo Gallery
694: Community Forums
695: Home
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Photo Gallery
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Photo Gallery
708: Home
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Your Account
712: Community Forums
713: Statistics
714: Community Forums
715: Home
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Home
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Member Screenshots
722: Photo Gallery
723: Community Forums
724: CPGlang
725: Photo Gallery
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Home
729: Community Forums
730: Home
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Your Account
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Downloads
742: Community Forums
743: Member Screenshots
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Member Screenshots
747: Photo Gallery
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: CPGlang
754: Community Forums
755: Downloads
756: Home
757: Downloads
758: Community Forums
759: Photo Gallery
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: CPGlang
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: Community Forums
769: Photo Gallery
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Home
775: Community Forums
776: Photo Gallery
777: Community Forums
778: Community Forums
779: Community Forums
780: Home
781: Community Forums
782: Downloads
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm
Post subject: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Question for former Army museum employees & volunteers: in your experience, is there a distinction between artifacts that are useful for soldier training and those of historical value? I dont see the distinction, particularly if you are training soldiers on the history of their branch...

But that's the baby the Senate Armed Services Committee is asking the Army to try to divide for the Armor/Ordnance/ADA collections. That being said, the intent of the language below is to enable the "historical" artifacts to be put on public display at privately-funded museums (vs the "training" artifacts that will be stored for soldier training at facilities paid for with public funds). Unfortunately, the committee is opposed to using public funds to enable public access.

Maybe (hopefully?) the Army will use this distinction to recreate what existed at Fort Knox with the Patton Museum vs Richardson Motor Pool? Who knows...

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/...srpt26.pdf

"Storage of Army artifacts
The fiscal year 2011 budget request for the Department of the Army recommended funding in Military Construction, Army, for three climate controlled storage buildings at Forts Benning, Lee, and Sill. These facilities were intended to support movement of Army macro-artifacts which were following Training and Doctrine Command schools re-locating as part of the Base Closure and Realignment 2005 process. Although the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization act for Fiscal Year 2011 (Public Law 111–383) did not authorize these projects, the committee supports the requirement to protect and preserve these historical collections.

"The committee has encouraged the Army to investigate all options for facility solutions. The committee encourages the Army to pursue the solutions that best address the priorities the Army has identified and that are the most fiscally prudent from a life cycle standpoint. Therefore, the committee directs the Army to complete its review of all options under consideration and provide a report to the committee not later than September 30, 2011, on its preferred solution set. The report shall contain, at a minimum, the following:
1. The Army’s requirements and priorities with respect to storing these artifacts;
2. Identification of various solution sets and a business case analysis for each course of action, as well as identifying any legal or regulatory barriers for the different options;
3. Estimates for the life cycle cost to the government for each option;
4. The expected cost and implications of not providing appropriate storage locations for the artifacts;
5. The Army’s recommendation for the appropriate option at each installation;
6. Any necessary legislative changes necessary to dispose of any artifacts that are not deemed to be of national historic significance; and
7. Delineation and listing of all artifacts to be stored, with special emphasis on those that are to be used for training and in what context, and those that merely have historical value as an artifact.

"With respect to the Army’s preferred option for each of the three installations, the committee notes that it does not and will not support the use of any appropriated funds being used to build or support a public museum."
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

just a note : it is good to read this, because it shows that the Senate is preoccupated by the fate of these historical artifacts.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Maybe we should set up an AFVNDG warehouse in the US to take any 'spare' vehicles that the Army doesn't want...

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Don, Bob, Garry,
Any comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

My fear is that anything supplied to a private museum will end up at a 'Museum' like the VMMV or the one in Florida that bought the collection from Hubbard OH.

Yes there are some good collections but most are the projects of individuals and subject to the vagries of life. Good intentions run up against tough budgets, wills and probate, divorce and even fraud. Maybe I am glad the Czech T35 went home instead of staying at the Ordinance Museum

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Bob,
The report seems (or at least tries) to distinguish amongst three different types of artifacts:
1) Those "not deemed to be of national historic significance" - these items could well be given away to various museums like you said.
2) Those of "national historic significance" - these items would remain Army property, but would be displayed at co-located (or nearby) museums - akin to the old Patton Museum, and to a lesser degree the Ordnance Museum.
3) Those "to be used for training" - these items would be stored at publicly-funded storage facility, for use by soldiers.

I suspect the artifacts falling under #1 will be relatively few - or at least that's what I can only hope the Army will say.

My primary curiousity/concern regards #2 & #3 - I dont see the distinction.

For those that worked & volunteered at the old museums, I am curious if you saw any practical distinction between artifacts that were used to train soldiers and "historical" artifacts displayed merely for public benefit. Seems to me soldiers are/were trained on the same historical items... But I could be wrong...

Neil

I believe the intent would still be to have a privately funded "museum" co-located (or nearby) the publicly-funded
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

My bet is when it's done and over with, all of the artifacts will be left out in the rain.

There is NO difference between #2 and #3.

The last time I was at the Ft Bliss museum, a Capt and a 1st Sgt came by. They were from a NG Air Defense unit. They were going to bring they unit by for a look at the Air Defense items still at the museum. Training is walking around a item and looking at it. Hopefully someone knows some history about it and can tell the troops. Next day, a family stops by and walks around the same item. Both the troops and the family do the same thing. They look and learn.

I somehow get the feeling that some one is thinking the troops get on or in an item and do something with it.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Neil

The only thing I can offer is the personal view point that the 'training tool' excuse has been far over-used by Army Officials.

A few soldiers going thru the museum once a month is not viable training experience but an excuse for a day away from the normal routine.

Is there any sort of training plan? (NO!)
"Task, Conditions, & Standards" (NO!)
Pre or post training testing ? (NO!)

These are (or at least were) minimum requirements for a basic training session.

Oh yeah, a bunch of young "LTs" climbing on old tanks after having their 'threat' class was always fun to babysit. They tended to do more harm to subject vehicles than any sort of beneficial training value. This is why we colocated all the Soviet/Russian vehicles together. Those were realistically the only vehicles that gave them any sort of training value.

The greatest casualty to this whole episode? The general public, veterans, and their families. And then there is the volunteers.

Volunteers spend (or have spent) Thousands of man hours to preserve or restore vehicles (utilizing private &/or personal funds) for public display & exhibitions that draw thousands of interested veterans, families, and enthusists.

The greatest success of the Ft Knox Armor Museum (ie old Patton Museum), was the ability of seeing, touching, smelling, and hearing Armor History. That is now gone for the most part and the ability of experiencing history in such a manner is now only possible through private collection museums.

a few items to consider....
What is Historical property? technically anything is....(no clear answer there!)

'Publically Funded Storage Facility" is a government built garage. A building that houses equipment. (There seems to be no interest in preservation or historical presentation.)

Sadly, the future seems to be bleak for any sort of "World Class Armor Museum" BRAC 05 destroyed an institution its history. Its too late to get any of that back, and there is no interest or funding for a future institution. THAT is the crime of this whole episode.

Of course this is merely my personal opinion.... Sorry for the ranting, I'll shut up now...

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Okay now that I vented

I can see someone deciding that anything from the late cold war is to be kept as a 'training aid' "So we can show the troops the weak spots, strengths, how to defend against it, etc". Fiberglass models would be about as useful (and a whole lot cheaper to maintain) if you just want to show the troops what a Panther or a Tiger looked like and how it compared to a Sherman or Stuart. And do Ordnance troops today even need to know that? They are only interested in recovering repairing and maintaining tanks. It took over 10 years for the Recovery Branch of the Ordnance school to move the Elefant one mile! (And eventually it was accomplished in the manner I suggested nine years ago - You embarrass the leaders - I suggested a bar bet with the senior NCOs, it was done by the Base Commander in a staff meeting to the OIC of the recovery Branch)

Another example - I used to make a point to groups about how bad the interleaved roadwheels of the Panther were for maintenance. A training aid set up with interleaved wheels that you could actually have trainees swap out the inside center wheel will make as much impression as showing them and telling them how unmaintanable they were compared to the spaced wheels of a T-34 or T-72 or a VVSS unit of a Sherman.

The older vehicles were more of professional interest to the designers and engineers who were developing the next generation by looking at how previous developers solved problems. But those folks aren't at Ft Lee or Benning so what training purpose do the vehicles serve there?

Their purpose is in building esprit, keeping the public enthused, having trophies to show off. And that isn't done by locking them away in a training area where only professionals who have already made a commitment can see them. They serve a major purpose by being down the center of the main road into the base where a 9 year old can be driven by them and think WOW and be in a place where a grandfather can bring his grand children and tell them 'that is what I did in the great war' Or where a group of Cub Scouts can walk around them and look at the gouges where rounds bounced off while a docent tells the story of a last ditch fruitless defense

A few will be deemed 'of national historic significance' (and probably for all the wrong reasons) Things like Patton's command truck, Cobra King (hopefully) Some M1 Combat car that they have a picture of Patton or Rose or someone else famous in Maybe some of the one of a kinds from the 20s and 30s. A few Shermans, Maybe some M-48s painted up like they were in Vietnam. You know as well as I do they have very few records on the vehicles at Aberdeen to be able to tell much about specific vehicles and what their 'significance is' The Tiger I (if it ever comes back) and the JagdTiger that we have photographic evidence of when and where it was captured may be some of the best documented. Will they keep the two Ordnance Museum Panthers side by side so someone can show the improvements made between early and late production? I doubt it.

Then there will be a lot put on the block for units or bases to request as monuments. Then they will start accepting requests from museums, probably based on who knows which Senator. Some will hopefully be well cared for and made available for some folks to see. Others will end up as trophies or playtoys for fatcats to show off to their friends and pat themselves on the back about how they are 'saving history'

The intellectual midgets that we have making these decisions in DC only think of what they can do to embarrass members of the other party and blame the previous administration for all the problems They want a 'feel good' sound bite that they will forget before the next reporter talks to them

I guess I just vented again

In actuality the 'training tool' excuse has always just been politically correct lip service used to justify the keeping of trophies. Everyone knew why they were being kept, they were being kept to show off to family and friends, Show the Taxpayer what their sacrifices (back in the big war) were for and be a center of pride for the organization. Well someone is now enforcing 'the letter of the law'. This is the 21st century version of the WWII and Korean war scrap drives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Interesting feedback. I suppose my hope is that the Army will say that most (if not almost all) artifacts have national historic value, but are not needed for direct soldier training per see... Setting them up for display at museums co-located at Benning, Lee and Sill.

My fear is that the collections will end up slit between the privately-funded museum and the publicly-funded storage facilities - with the latter (ironically) not accessible by the public.

BTW, I am told there is one particular well-known Senator that is firmly opposed to using public funds for public access (ie museums). The same Senator that rails against pork barrel spending on a regular basis...
Back to top
View user's profile
ShermanWasRight
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2009
Posts: 165
Location: Central Ohio/Northern Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I find the disdain for private museums here interesting, as it's quite the opposite of what I've seen among warbird enthusiasts-they love the "free market approach."

Of course, I agree with the opinion here; "preserving" history in someone's garage/hangar that the public only sees 5 days a year is next to worthless. Unfortunately I don't really know that I can offer any real solutions to the problem-it's hard even for me as someone who loves history to think that these vehicles could be used for training modern soldiers in any real fashion.

^^^^the storage facilites being off limits for "security reasons," of course, like the numerous gateguards at airbases across the country Rolling Eyes . The freaking Iranian planespotters have better access to their air force than I do, based on what I see on airliners.net. If I asked the USAF for permission to take pictures of their birds at, say, Rickenbacker, the chances are good they'd tell me about all the security/OPSEC risks before they then said no.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Keep in mind that you can go to an airshow once (or a few times) a year to see privately restored warbirds, and you can also go almost any day a year to an aviation museum.

That balance has been upset for the AFV world in the US. You can still go to the open houses to see privately restored vehicles, but the two largest AFV museum collections are now in storage.

It would be akin to having the Air & Space Museum and USAF Museum collections in storage at the same time due to impending - and as yet uncertain and unfunded - moves.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

And keep in mind that while the country groans under crushing debt and the DoD creaks under indecipherable accounting practices, we're "saving money" by moving an entire branch (or two) of the army at considerable expense, yet "closing" nothing under BRAC in the move. To say nothing of leaving behind an essentially empty and amortized museum that was well suited to it's task while it's key displays are left to rot out of public view for who-knows-how long?

A new museum (if, in fact, one is ever started, let alone completed) will cost many millions. I predict we will not see such a facility for at least ten years...and I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

I got to quit commenting, this is getting my elevated blood pressure even higher !! (Wheres my B.P. pills !!)

Oh well, such is life
Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Dontos
....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

Don


The ultimate irony will be when they starting sending people TDY from Benning to Knox to conduct training on facilities that Benning doesn't have.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum