±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 775
Total: 775
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Your Account
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Your Account
11: CPGlang
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Home
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Member Screenshots
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: CPGlang
51: Home
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Home
56: Member Screenshots
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Downloads
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Your Account
78: Home
79: Statistics
80: Community Forums
81: Downloads
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Your Account
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: News
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Home
103: Member Screenshots
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Downloads
136: Member Screenshots
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Downloads
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Statistics
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Member Screenshots
181: Downloads
182: Community Forums
183: News
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: News Archive
192: Downloads
193: Home
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Statistics
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Statistics
202: News
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Member Screenshots
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Downloads
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: CPGlang
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Photo Gallery
241: Your Account
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: News
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Your Account
259: Photo Gallery
260: Home
261: Home
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Home
273: Photo Gallery
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Member Screenshots
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Photo Gallery
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Downloads
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: News
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Photo Gallery
336: Member Screenshots
337: Community Forums
338: Home
339: Photo Gallery
340: Member Screenshots
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Photo Gallery
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: CPGlang
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Statistics
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Downloads
368: Photo Gallery
369: Member Screenshots
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Downloads
377: Community Forums
378: Member Screenshots
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Photo Gallery
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Downloads
390: Photo Gallery
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Photo Gallery
395: News
396: Downloads
397: Tell a Friend
398: Community Forums
399: Photo Gallery
400: Community Forums
401: Member Screenshots
402: Photo Gallery
403: Your Account
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Your Account
407: CPGlang
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Home
416: Photo Gallery
417: Community Forums
418: News
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Home
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Downloads
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Home
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: CPGlang
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: CPGlang
452: Home
453: Downloads
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Your Account
459: Photo Gallery
460: Photo Gallery
461: Photo Gallery
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Downloads
471: Community Forums
472: Your Account
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: Photo Gallery
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Home
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Photo Gallery
486: Member Screenshots
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Photo Gallery
498: Photo Gallery
499: Home
500: Home
501: Photo Gallery
502: Home
503: Home
504: Home
505: Community Forums
506: Downloads
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Downloads
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: CPGlang
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: CPGlang
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Home
540: Statistics
541: CPGlang
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: CPGlang
553: Your Account
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Your Account
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Home
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Home
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: News
584: Community Forums
585: Statistics
586: Home
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Member Screenshots
590: Downloads
591: Community Forums
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Photo Gallery
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Search
598: Community Forums
599: Member Screenshots
600: Downloads
601: Member Screenshots
602: Home
603: Photo Gallery
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Your Account
611: Home
612: Photo Gallery
613: Your Account
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Home
617: Photo Gallery
618: Photo Gallery
619: Home
620: Home
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Home
629: Downloads
630: Photo Gallery
631: Photo Gallery
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Downloads
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Community Forums
639: Member Screenshots
640: Home
641: Community Forums
642: Home
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Downloads
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Home
651: Photo Gallery
652: Home
653: Community Forums
654: Downloads
655: Home
656: Photo Gallery
657: Your Account
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: News Archive
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Downloads
668: Community Forums
669: Photo Gallery
670: Photo Gallery
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: News Archive
677: Community Forums
678: Your Account
679: Photo Gallery
680: Photo Gallery
681: Community Forums
682: CPGlang
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: CPGlang
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Home
691: Community Forums
692: Photo Gallery
693: Photo Gallery
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Home
697: Home
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Home
706: Downloads
707: Your Account
708: Community Forums
709: Member Screenshots
710: Photo Gallery
711: Community Forums
712: News
713: Community Forums
714: Photo Gallery
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Downloads
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: News Archive
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Photo Gallery
724: Community Forums
725: Member Screenshots
726: Photo Gallery
727: Community Forums
728: Photo Gallery
729: Community Forums
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Photo Gallery
739: Home
740: Community Forums
741: Photo Gallery
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Photo Gallery
747: Community Forums
748: Downloads
749: Photo Gallery
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Photo Gallery
755: Photo Gallery
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Photo Gallery
759: Supporters
760: Your Account
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Photo Gallery
767: Community Forums
768: Photo Gallery
769: Community Forums
770: Photo Gallery
771: Home
772: Community Forums
773: Photo Gallery
774: Home
775: Downloads

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48/M60 Turret ID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject: M48/M60 Turret ID

I'm looking at photos of Israeli tanks and I'm curious how to differentiate an M48A3 (low profile cupola) turret from an M60(A0) turret if the M48A3 has a 105mm gun?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Rick_Eshleman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 26, 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Lewes, Delaware, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark,
Here's 2 views of the M60A0 turret at Annapolis. I don't have any M48A3 views, but it's a start. Rick
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail AIM Address Photo Gallery
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60A0 turret was more squared off in the back than the M48 turret.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60 never appeared without the distinctive cupola (M19?...can't recall), as far as I've ever known.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.

I’ll bet that JoeD can really nail this question, but I’ll give it a shot.

As mikek points out, the M60A0 turret does have an oddly-squarish shape at the back right-hand side, by the antenna mount. The M48-series turret is very rounded in that area. Interestingly -- at least some M60A0s also have a machine gun pintle mount at the back of the turret . . . “inside” the bustle rack. [I think that this was pointed out to me by someone on this forum a few years ago. JoeD? Gary Owsley?] Both of these features can be seen in the drawing in Hunnicutt’s Patton. You can just make out the pintle mount in Rick’s first picture, above.

I was going to say that the definitive identification feature is the location of the lifting eyes on the turret, but a quick look through Patton and a few other references shows this not to be the case. In any event, I believe that the M48-series always used a “one-two” pattern to the turret lifting eyes (one in the front, in the center of the turret glacis; two at the back, on the turret sides). Apparently, some M60A0s also used this pattern, but some M60A0s also used a “two-one” pattern (two at the front, on the upper sides of the turret [like the M60A1]; one at the back, on the center of the turret roof). The M60A0 in Rick’s two photos above have this “two-one” pattern. I do not know what the details of this difference are; perhaps it is due to a different manufacturer? Apparently the first 360 M60A0s were built at Chrysler’s Newark, Delaware plant. From vehicle 361 on, production was carried out at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Since photos of the initial production vehicles awaiting delivery show the M48-style “one-two” turret lifting eye pattern, and a photo of “late M60 production by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal” in Patton shows the other “two-one” pattern lifting eyes, I’m going to guess that the change was due to the different manufacturer.

In any case, I think that if you see turret lifting eyes on the front upper sides of an M48/M60A0-style turret, you can probably bet that it is an M60A0.

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.

Hopefully, JoeD will see this and hop in here.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.


Interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of an M60 without the cupola, although I can certainly understand why the Israelis would do away with them. It's possible that I just assumed that I was looking at an M48 in the absence of other identifying features.

Any chance of a photo?

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Israeli M48 & M60 cupolas . . . there’s a subject for a post!

Short version (and some of these details might be soft or just plain wrong, so if anyone knows better, please jump in here): before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis had replaced the M1 cupola on a lot of their M48s with the “all-round” (i.e., six-periscope) vision cupola from the Sherman. I believe that at about the time of the ’73 War they were in the process of — or planning to — replace both the M1 cupola and the Sherman cupola with the ‘new’ Urdan cupola, which was just basically a modified version of the original cupola from the M48(A0). It is possible that some M60A0s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the same cupolas mentioned above before the 1973 war, but I can’t think of any pictures of them.

After the 1973 War, most, if not all, Israeli M48-series and M60-series MBTs received the Urdan* cupola as part of the rebuild/upgrade process. The new feature of the Urdan cupola was its ability to be opened on a partial, protected mode, with the hatch cover held parallel to the turret roof, open about 4-6 inches over the cupola opening. This provided the TC with overhead cover, while still allowing direct vision.

If this link works . . . here is an Israeli M60A0 rebuilt to Mag’ach 7 standards:

www.primeportal.net/ta.../magach_7/

You can see the Urdan cupola at the TC’s position. And, if you look hard enough, you can almost recognize an M60A0 under all that added armor and equipment.




Mark



* Edit: I should point out that this is the same cupola that the U.S. later used on their late-model M48A5 (Low-Profile) upgrade.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I knew about the M48 conversions, for both the Israelis and the US tanks. I actually used the Urdan cupola on an M48A5 for a short period, and rather liked it. I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.

I guess I don't think of the Mag'ach conversions as M60s, with all the additional stuff added on the outside. I know that under all that there is an M60, but it's pretty hard to tell from a quick look. They certainly make version ID really tough!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

What got me started on this was that for some reason I was thinking that the Israeli M48A3 with a 105mm gun was also known as M48A4. A Wikipedia article says the M48A4 had the turret from an M60(A0). So what I was wondering was if you see an Israeli M48 with a 105mm gun then does it possibly have an M60(A0) turret?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark:

References aren't to hand right now (Hunnicutt, primarily, and possibly also Jim Mesko's Squadron/Signal book on M48s) . . . but if I remember correctly, the official M48A4 designation never actually got used, since the imagined surplus of turrets from the M60A0s converted to M60A2s never happened. I believe that only one such tank ever existed (and it might have been known as an M48A1E2 or something like that). I think that the Mesko book mentioned that the Israeli conversions of their M48-series to "M48A5-standard" were then unofficially referred to as M48A4s in U.S. paperwork. So, I kind of doubt that you would see an Israeli M48Ax with an M60A0 turret — at least not coming from U.S. sources. What sort of modifications and/or turret switching the Israelis carried out is sort of above and beyond . . .

Bear in mind, this is all from memory, so it could be a bit twisted. Or just wrong.

I suppose, if you see an obviously M48 hull, with a turret with the funny squared-off right rear area, or a 'two-one' pattern to the turret lifting eyes, then you've probably found an ersatz M48A4 . . . at least by the 'book-description'. I've never seen one, but then again, I've also never set out to see if I could find one, before a couple nights ago.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark


Well, cool! Now I've seen an M60 without the cupola.

(BTW, I'm not at all sure the cupola was actually called M19. That just stuck in my memory for some reason, and it may be completely wrong. I do know we never referred to them as a CWS.)

Thanks. I've been schooled, and I appreciate it.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.


Gary (it IS Gary, isn’t it?):

You are absolutely right -- the hull would be the dead give-away in almost any case. Thanks for throwing in on this one. I actually did mention hulls as a method of differentiation in the fifth post of this thread:

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.


. . . but as I added, the original poster was specifically looking for information on identifying the turret . . . for whatever reason. Perhaps the tank is hull-down, or maybe the picture he is looking at is cropped, or maybe the turret wasn’t mounted on a tank, or maybe he wonders if maybe he might be looking at an M48A4 instead . . . the latter theory apparently being exactly what he had in mind. So I was pretty much concentrating on identifying the turret type, figuring that if he had really wanted to identify the tank type by the hull, he would have asked that question instead.

But you’re right, Gary, if you can see the hull (and if you’re confident that you’re not looking at an M48A4 -- or an ersatz M48A4), then you have a pretty good idea whether it is an M48-series vehicle or an M60-series vehicle.

Chuck, Mark, et al:

I had a look in Hunnicutt’s Patton, and the standard M60-series cupola is the M19 (although it is described in one caption on page 159 of that same book as the “M29”, which is presumably a typo). In a previous post, I used the name “M48A1E2” to describe the M48A4 ‘protoytpe’; this was incorrect, and should have been “M48A1E3” (additionally, there were two of these ‘prototype’ tanks built, not one). I did find it interesting that the M48A4 was originally going to be called the XM735, and the M48A5 was originally slated to be called the XM736.

I seems to me that the first time I can ever recall the M48A4 mentioned was in an article on post-WWII American armor in a magazine called . . . if my memory serves me correctly: Combat Illustrated . . . circa the mid- to late 1970s (or maybe the early 1980s). I can’t find it anywhere; I would think I would still have it. Does anyone recall that magazine or article?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum