±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 543
Total: 543
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Statistics
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Home
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Downloads
24: Home
25: Downloads
26: News Archive
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Your Account
41: CPGlang
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Photo Gallery
53: Member Screenshots
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Member Screenshots
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Photo Gallery
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Community Forums
80: Downloads
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: CPGlang
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Photo Gallery
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Your Account
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Your Account
105: Photo Gallery
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Photo Gallery
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Statistics
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Your Account
133: Community Forums
134: Downloads
135: Statistics
136: News
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Your Account
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Member Screenshots
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Downloads
169: Photo Gallery
170: Search
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Member Screenshots
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Downloads
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Your Account
196: News
197: Photo Gallery
198: Photo Gallery
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Downloads
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: CPGlang
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Downloads
218: Photo Gallery
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Home
239: Home
240: Downloads
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Photo Gallery
248: Downloads
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Member Screenshots
262: Downloads
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Downloads
271: Photo Gallery
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Your Account
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Photo Gallery
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Downloads
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Member Screenshots
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Home
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Member Screenshots
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: CPGlang
329: Statistics
330: News Archive
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Member Screenshots
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Community Forums
340: Photo Gallery
341: Photo Gallery
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Statistics
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Your Account
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: CPGlang
356: Community Forums
357: Downloads
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Downloads
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: CPGlang
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Your Account
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Downloads
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Tell a Friend
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Your Account
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: CPGlang
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Home
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Downloads
420: Community Forums
421: Member Screenshots
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Home
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Statistics
437: Home
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Your Account
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Photo Gallery
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: CPGlang
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Your Account
489: Photo Gallery
490: Statistics
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Downloads
494: Downloads
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Your Account
498: Photo Gallery
499: Photo Gallery
500: Downloads
501: Community Forums
502: Home
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Photo Gallery
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: CPGlang
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Statistics
520: Downloads
521: Statistics
522: CPGlang
523: Photo Gallery
524: Photo Gallery
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Your Account
529: Photo Gallery
530: Community Forums
531: Downloads
532: Downloads
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Downloads
542: Home
543: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:25 pm
Post subject: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hi All,

I made a return trip to the Armed Forces Military Museum in Largo, FL to photograph the cupola on the M4A3 Sherman. I took a number of detail photos and added them to the existing museum gallery. The link below should take you to the page with the new photos.
I also spoke with the museum historian (as I noted in the PBS Motorweek post) regarding the cupola. Via phone I told him that the cupola was a rare, experimental model and wasn’t historically accurate. I offered to send him the info from JoeD’s post if he was interested and did so via email. We’ll see if anything changes, but at least I passed the information on to the museum. Worth a shot.

New photos page link:
www.vgbimages.com/AFV-...;k=F4x24jd

Back to top
View user's profile
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Another issue the museum should be aware of is the tank itself. Try as I might, I have yet to find a picture of a 60 degree M4A3 hull with a T23 turret. Although it's possible, given that the Sherman's 69" turret ring can take it, it doesn't appear to have been done even for trials.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Was it a postwar development for use on Shermans (for foreign sales)? Or not intended for Shermans at all?
Back to top
View user's profile
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Neil -

Quoting JoeD's post from the Motorweek on PBS thread:

- Joe_D
Would be nice if museums would at least acknowledge that items they have on display are accurate or just representations using similar but not historically correct. Nothing is perfect but seeing "Kit Bashes" like this M4 makes me cringe.

The cupola on this tank is quite rare, it is not from an M48A1, but rather one of the experimental AAI model 108 cupolas designed as a possible replacement for the troublesome M1 cupola which never was adopted. They installed these on the T54/T54E2 turrets the Army tested. The hatch pivots to the side instead of up and back. You can also see this cupola installed on the T95 experimental tank, since the T54E2 turrets were turned over to this program. Some pictures also show it on T95 specific turrets. The original prototype M60 had this same type cupola mounted until the M19 was fully developed. To my knowledge only maybe 5 or 6 of these were made at most, this being a generous estimate. Below are pictures courtesy of Jim's "Jed" site.

T54E2

T95

I have an image back home of the Pilot M60 mounting this cupola, but can't find a copy online to post. Really curious where they got this cupola from. I know T54E2/T95 turrets were scrapped, most likely used as hard targets. Wonder if they found it along with the Sherman Turret on the ranges at Eglin AFB. Lot of stuff was disposed there. Really needs to be recognized for what it is, and possibly some museum offer to trade an authentic Sherman cupola for this one, being quite rare.
Back to top
View user's profile
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Its an odd looking A3-look closely at the hull hatches and bow MG-something is odd here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hence my previous post. The way I see it, it's a mid-production dry stowage hull (as evidenced by the drivers' long cowls lacking direct vision slots and the lack of applique plates on the hull sides) - not a feature normally associated with the T23 type turret.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:35 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

But look closely at the hull hatches hinges and the front appliqué armor-something looks wrong here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

You're absolutely right, Dan. I got a good hard look at the cowls and there is something definitely fishy, not just the non-standard applique plates, which were probably added during restoration and the hinges. The cowls are not mid-late production as I had originally surmised, since they lack the auxiliary drop-down periscopes on the front and their shape is quite unusual and not even consistent with that of direct vision cowls, not to mention they protrude too much above the hull roof. Even in Hunnicutt's book, I have not been able to find something like that, which leads me to believe they were made during restoration. Maybe the tank lacked them for some reason when it came to the museum or it already had been fitted with those by someone else.
I'm just as bummed as you are now.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

I tink that the drivers' hoods and the bow MG mount were rebuilt. Maybe the hull came from a range and was too badly damaged, that it necessitated to rebuild the front hull?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hey Guys,

I've uploaded a somewhat blurry photo in which you can see what looks like a weld seam coming from the turret ring and going down the glacis plate. It appears that the hatches and most of the glacis plate have been replaced - which would explain the oddities noted on this thread.

Take a look -


Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

what look original are the hatches, the travel lock, the hull antenna mount and the hull lifting rings.

The drivers' hoods are replicas, and the travel lock mount/supports, front appliqué plates, bow MG are replicas too.

As you said, it seems that a great part of the front armor was missing on this hull.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum