±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 804
Total: 804
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Statistics
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: News Archive
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Your Account
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Your Account
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Downloads
48: CPGlang
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Photo Gallery
53: Member Screenshots
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Member Screenshots
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: LinkToUs
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Community Forums
86: CPGlang
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Downloads
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Home
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Downloads
119: Photo Gallery
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Downloads
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Downloads
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Member Screenshots
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Member Screenshots
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: News
154: Home
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Home
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Photo Gallery
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Downloads
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Downloads
204: Community Forums
205: Downloads
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Statistics
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: News
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Community Forums
228: Member Screenshots
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Member Screenshots
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Downloads
235: Home
236: Downloads
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Downloads
246: Community Forums
247: Downloads
248: Community Forums
249: Member Screenshots
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Member Screenshots
263: Community Forums
264: Downloads
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Your Account
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Downloads
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Photo Gallery
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Member Screenshots
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Downloads
306: Community Forums
307: Downloads
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Photo Gallery
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: News Archive
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Downloads
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: News
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Downloads
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Downloads
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Downloads
349: Community Forums
350: Photo Gallery
351: Photo Gallery
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Downloads
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Photo Gallery
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Your Account
382: Community Forums
383: Home
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Photo Gallery
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Photo Gallery
395: Downloads
396: Downloads
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: News Archive
401: Photo Gallery
402: Photo Gallery
403: CPGlang
404: News Archive
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Home
421: Community Forums
422: CPGlang
423: Community Forums
424: CPGlang
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Member Screenshots
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: LinkToUs
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Downloads
447: Community Forums
448: Photo Gallery
449: Community Forums
450: News Archive
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Home
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Photo Gallery
463: Home
464: Photo Gallery
465: Photo Gallery
466: Your Account
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: CPGlang
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Statistics
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Home
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Home
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Home
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Your Account
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: News
549: Your Account
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Downloads
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Search
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Photo Gallery
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: CPGlang
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Downloads
578: Photo Gallery
579: Member Screenshots
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: CPGlang
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Photo Gallery
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Home
599: Community Forums
600: Photo Gallery
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Downloads
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Photo Gallery
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Community Forums
619: Home
620: Community Forums
621: Downloads
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums
624: Member Screenshots
625: Downloads
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: News Archive
632: Your Account
633: Member Screenshots
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Community Forums
639: Home
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Photo Gallery
643: Member Screenshots
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Home
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Photo Gallery
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Home
653: Community Forums
654: Home
655: Community Forums
656: Photo Gallery
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Downloads
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Photo Gallery
665: Community Forums
666: Photo Gallery
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Downloads
670: Home
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Home
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Downloads
683: Photo Gallery
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Home
695: Home
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Photo Gallery
700: Photo Gallery
701: Home
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Photo Gallery
705: Community Forums
706: Home
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Photo Gallery
710: Community Forums
711: Photo Gallery
712: Photo Gallery
713: News Archive
714: Home
715: Photo Gallery
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Photo Gallery
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Your Account
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Statistics
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: News Archive
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Home
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Photo Gallery
737: Home
738: Photo Gallery
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Member Screenshots
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Your Account
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Photo Gallery
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: CPGlang
753: Statistics
754: Photo Gallery
755: Community Forums
756: Community Forums
757: Photo Gallery
758: Photo Gallery
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Photo Gallery
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Photo Gallery
768: Community Forums
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Home
774: Community Forums
775: Your Account
776: Community Forums
777: Community Forums
778: Member Screenshots
779: Statistics
780: Community Forums
781: Home
782: Home
783: Community Forums
784: Home
785: Community Forums
786: Photo Gallery
787: CPGlang
788: Photo Gallery
789: Photo Gallery
790: Community Forums
791: Community Forums
792: Community Forums
793: Home
794: Photo Gallery
795: Community Forums
796: Community Forums
797: Community Forums
798: Community Forums
799: Community Forums
800: CPGlang
801: Community Forums
802: Home
803: Photo Gallery
804: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:24 pm
Post subject: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I bought a 20 February Army Times this morning here on post and page 16 had a huge write up on armor, vehicle, and helicopter losses in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001. Here are some numbers from that article;
The Army has lost 85 helicopters broken down as;
-27 Apache's
-21 Black Hawks
-14 Chinooks
-23 Kiowa's
Armor and wheeled vehicles are as follows;
-20 M1 Tanks
-50 Bradley's
-20 Strykers
-20 M113's
-250 Humvees
-500 Medium/Heavy Trucks, FOX recon, mine clearers, and trailers
Additional numbers in the article are;
- 230 M1 were rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 700 in 2006.
- 318 Bradleys rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 600 in 2006.
- 219 M113's in 2005, the number will top 614 in 2006.
- 5,000 Humvees in 2005, the number will top 9,000 in 2006.
- 44 aircraft in 2005, the number will be close to 85 in 2006.
The Army has ordered 16 new Apaches, and 5 new Black Hawks. But cannot replace the 27 Kiowas because production lines are no longer open.
Quote- "There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".
There are currently 30,000 Humvees in theater, once the war is over, 6,000 will be "washed out" upon return to the states, the rest will be repaired and overhauled.
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each. The upgrades will reduce the M1 versions from 5 to 2, (M1A1 AIM and the M1A2 SEP). Bradleys will also be reduced to just 2 versions.
Army workshops have cranked up capacity from 11 million man hours in 2002, to 20 million hours in 2005. AMC sends half its repair work to private-sector firms to help with the load.
Crunch those numbers, pretty staggering. Just thought you all might be interested.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Over a 15 year period, it sounds like a bad 1-2 months in Vietnam (four months, if counting casualties), a testament to the sound designs of the equipment, their employment, and the infrastructure in place to get them back into the inventory.

To focus on a single type for comparison, there were 7,013 UH-1's (all variants) that served in Vietnam, of which 3,305 were destroyed.

Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827.

Vehicles would be more difficult to account for, because many never came home..they were transferred to the ARVN as units pulled out. This includes numerous armored vehicles, including mine.

Obviously, the costs have gone up, adjusted for 35-40 years of inflation.

Not too shabby, IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

"There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".

There will be plenty of work for civilians at the arsenals, and in associated businesses. If you consider the work to rebuild ONE M4 carbine to specification, that means a full parts bin, a technician who understands the design and how to run the gauges, plus a series of inspectors at both ends of the supply chain. Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?


Hi all!

Maple, the answer to your question is "some of each". The Army is using this as an opportunity to "spiral" new technologies and systems into service. Some of the old gear will be replaced with equivalent items. Some will be rebuilt, but to 0-hour condition with all the latest upgrades installed. And some items will be scrapped and replaced with improved and new systems. The idea is to push advanced technologies and systems into the field as they become available, and to keep existing equipment in peak condition, while culling older and less capable equipment out.

The Pentagram has a pretty comprehensive plan for maintaining our capabilities and continuing the Transformation effort, as long as our Congress will fund it. Of course, that is the hurdle, since they will bicker about the funding while wasting twice that amount on silly pet projects. The bottom line is that the health of the Army rests in the hands of the civilian leadership.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I still wonder what the criteria for that list included with the ground vehicles in mind.

Is it:
Operational loss (broke beyond theater level repair),
Castrophic loss (...BLOWN UP, BURN DOWN or something such as that !!)

As for Aircraft, thats simple since if hit by enemy fire/mechanical failure and crash, the airframe most likely is a total write-off. Rapid Deaccelaration with 'terra-firma' tends to condemn the aircraft as NMC.

Just a few thoughts,

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

[img][/img][img][/img]
That article mentions that most all vehicle losses were due to IED's and car bombs, so I'm assuming that all the vehicles were total losses. As great as the Stryker might be, the mesh grill attached to it sure makes it look awkward for use in an urban enviroment, even thought the mesh no-doubt saves the crew and vehicle from RPG attacks.
I noticed in an USA Today article in Fridays edition, that the Navy is retiring the F-14 Tomcat, after 32 years of service. Its replacement the F18E/F Super Hornet has a 214mph slower top speed, and costs 24.6 Million dollars more than the F14's cost when new, (47.3 mil for the F14 in 1974 VS 71.9mil for the F18 in 1999). Seems that the F14 costs to much to repair. An F14 requires 50 hours of maint for each 1 hour of flight, versus 5-10 hours of maint for the F18. Also mentioned was the fact that the F14 was aimed at dogfighting, (as in top-gun fame) but that it is no longer needed since jets now shoot missiles at each other from miles away. The last F14 to fly a combat mission was February 8th, when Cpt. William Sizemore flew over Iraq with another F14 from the USS Theodore Roosevelt and dropped bombs. The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.


Earlier generations have made similar claims for their favorite bird. At least one Vietnam War Navy or USMC jet jockey was quoted as saying "when you're out of F-8's, you're outta fighters!". Not everyone was happy to trade their F-8 Crusaders for the heavier, less agile, multi-role F-4. Laughing

David
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I don't see how the F-14 can be considered a 'Pure Fighter' It was designed as a Fleet Air Defense Interceptor and wasn't supposed to have to dogfight at all. It was supposed to engage targets at 100 miles with the Phoenix missle. Suppsoedly it would shoot six maissles and let the computer figure out which targets to aim them at

Now when the F-15 was designed the mantra was 'Not a pound for Air to Ground' Everything was made as light as possible including making wire bundles just long enough to reach the boxes they went to meaning that when I neaded to replace the Comm control panel on an early F-15A I had to reach way down into the side console and ghook up 3 cannon plugs by feel with about 2 " of slack. And if you got a cannon plug on crooked and bent a pin it could take hours to replace the connector with it's 125 pins. Al of it done way down inside the plane where you couldn't see what you were doing. Later A models had about 6" of slack in the cables. but pilots used to get the early birds whenever possible they swore that there was a performance difference with the lighter birds. We were told that over 100 pounds had been saved just by making sure no cable was longer than neccesary. The F-15 was the last of the real dogfighters. The F-16 can't dogfight because of the 'fly by wire' side stick controller. With the side stick the pilot is only suggesting to the flight control computer what manuever he wants to make. the computer decides how much control to apply making sure the airframe is not 'over Ged' As one F-15 pilot i debriefed put it "If I have a missle coming up my tail I WANT to over G the airframe. I don't want some computer overriding my inputs because 'I may over stress the airframe and shorten the life of the aircraft' I want to pull that airplane around as tight as I can and if I pop a few rivets that is fine with me. If I pull the wings off then I'll eject but If I get away with it I'll help do the over G inspection when I get home" By the way the highest recorded G load on an F-15 was 19Gs in air combat manuevering. The pilot momentarily blacked out but he mad it back to the base. The wingtips were 1.5" higher than they should be (as measured before it was 'one time flight' back to St Louis. I wish I could remember the tail number of that plane.

About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- bsmart
About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.


True enough, Bob. And I'm sure a source of endless frustration to many F-4 jocks (AF, Navy, and USMC alike) who found themselves point blank to an NVAF MiG-17 or MiG-21 and unable to do anything about it. (Inside arming distance for AIM-9, let alone AIM-7!) I was actually thinking more about the fact that our squadron pilots called the F-4 the "Rhino" for a reason. Laughing

Marginal armor content: The F-4 was built about as solid as a tank!

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

The "pure-fighter" quote came from the Friday, 17 February USA Today article on page 2A, not me. That particular quote came from Adm. William Fallon, the U.S. Pacific Commander and a former F14 weapons officer, (maybe he's biased). I don't know anything about F-8's. I wasn't aware that the Navy never had guns installed on their F-4 Phantoms. Seems like stupidity to me. I feel there will always be a need for a gun system on a jet for one reason or another.
I apologize now for the "marginal Armor content", I love jets and have a special fondness for F-105 Thunderchiefs (Thuds) as well as the F-100 Super Sabre, F-4 Phantom, and A-7 Corsair. WWII would be almost every plane the US built. Always wanted to be a pilot but my mild color blindness nix'd that.
But back to what started this thread, losses to U.S. equipment overseas. I was aware of the Vietnam helicopter losses through the research I've done on Hueys. This was merely an "informational" piece to share what I've read in Army Times. I'm just kind of amazed at the numbers, not so much the actual vehicle/aircraft losses themselves, but the dollar amounts for the losses. Of course the human losses outweigh everything, but the dollar costs are stagering. In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865, and an M1A2 costs 4.3 Million. See the following site for M1 info; www.globalsecurity.org.../lima.htm. Why it costs 7 million to upgrade a 4.3 million dollar tank, I don't know. I hope this clears things up.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865


Jeff,
I'm surprized at the figure for an M60. It was not my (or our, then) impression that the cost was even half that figure (at least up through the M60A1......A3's with all the goodies maybe....).
Can we get more than one source for the cost of, say, an M60A1 ~1970? I have doubts about the million-plus cost for the first two generations of 60's.

aha!...got it now...that price was for the latest/greatest M60A3 version:


www.fas.org/man/dod-10...-m60a3.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Yeah, I was researching M60A3's because the 3- M60's at Ft Irwin are all A3 models. The $1.291,865 price is from the "Army Master Data File Acquisition" listing. How acurate the cost is I do not know. You get what you pay for. At 4.3 Million dollars, It would be my hope that as an M1 track commander, that the 4.3 mill went towards protecting me and my crew from a 105mm buried in the ground, not just towards a computer system that drains my battery.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?


Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

The cost of a new tank would possible be far more. There is NO plant, with skilled workers present, that can build new tanks.

You would have to find skilled workers, possible train some of them, check out all the equipment that was placed in storage (that is if any of it was saved), service and repair all of it as needed before restarting production. So less you are planning on building 10,000+ tanks, the restarting process cost would make 7 million per vehicle look cheap.

You have to remember that we didn't need the old AFV plants to make steel vehicles because all FCS vehicles will be made out of sci-fi composits. I think we are lucky that we still have plants that can do repairs and upgrades to old and damaged hulls.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?

Also remember that most of the new tanks were built back in the 80's with 105's. I think there have been at least two generations of armor since then as well as considerably more advanced electronics. So yes they are more expensive but they are also conciderably more capable.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum