±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 716
Total: 716
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Photo Gallery
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Downloads
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Photo Gallery
18: Photo Gallery
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Statistics
23: Photo Gallery
24: Photo Gallery
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Downloads
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Search
39: Community Forums
40: News Archive
41: Photo Gallery
42: Member Screenshots
43: Home
44: CPGlang
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Photo Gallery
48: News
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Downloads
56: Member Screenshots
57: Community Forums
58: Downloads
59: News
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Photo Gallery
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Photo Gallery
75: Photo Gallery
76: Home
77: Photo Gallery
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Downloads
81: CPGlang
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: CPGlang
86: Downloads
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Downloads
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Member Screenshots
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Downloads
113: Downloads
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Downloads
143: Downloads
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Downloads
160: News
161: News Archive
162: Community Forums
163: News Archive
164: Community Forums
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Downloads
168: Photo Gallery
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Downloads
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Downloads
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Home
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Statistics
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Home
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: CPGlang
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: News Archive
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Member Screenshots
253: Member Screenshots
254: Community Forums
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Member Screenshots
258: Home
259: Photo Gallery
260: Statistics
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Downloads
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: CPGlang
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: News
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Home
295: Photo Gallery
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Home
313: Home
314: Home
315: Photo Gallery
316: Member Screenshots
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Statistics
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Community Forums
343: Member Screenshots
344: Photo Gallery
345: Member Screenshots
346: Home
347: Home
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Member Screenshots
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Downloads
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: CPGlang
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Statistics
370: Home
371: Home
372: Photo Gallery
373: Member Screenshots
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Photo Gallery
377: Downloads
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Member Screenshots
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Member Screenshots
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: News
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: Statistics
418: Home
419: Downloads
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Home
423: Community Forums
424: Your Account
425: Home
426: Downloads
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Home
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: Downloads
436: Photo Gallery
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Downloads
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Photo Gallery
450: Photo Gallery
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: CPGlang
459: Home
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Photo Gallery
469: CPGlang
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: CPGlang
476: Community Forums
477: Home
478: Photo Gallery
479: Home
480: News
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Photo Gallery
487: Home
488: Home
489: Photo Gallery
490: Home
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Your Account
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Photo Gallery
508: CPGlang
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Home
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: Photo Gallery
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: News Archive
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: News
526: Community Forums
527: Your Account
528: Community Forums
529: Home
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Downloads
539: Home
540: Home
541: News
542: Home
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Photo Gallery
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Your Account
557: Home
558: Photo Gallery
559: Statistics
560: Community Forums
561: Home
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Your Account
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Photo Gallery
581: Home
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Your Account
586: News
587: News Archive
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: Photo Gallery
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Your Account
595: Your Account
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Your Account
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Photo Gallery
603: Photo Gallery
604: Home
605: Photo Gallery
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Member Screenshots
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Statistics
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Member Screenshots
620: News Archive
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Photo Gallery
625: Home
626: Downloads
627: Home
628: Photo Gallery
629: Community Forums
630: Statistics
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Photo Gallery
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Member Screenshots
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Member Screenshots
646: Photo Gallery
647: Community Forums
648: Statistics
649: Community Forums
650: Home
651: Photo Gallery
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Photo Gallery
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Photo Gallery
659: Home
660: Community Forums
661: Downloads
662: Member Screenshots
663: Community Forums
664: Home
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Statistics
669: Community Forums
670: Home
671: Community Forums
672: Home
673: Community Forums
674: Photo Gallery
675: Home
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Photo Gallery
680: Member Screenshots
681: Home
682: Community Forums
683: Search
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: CPGlang
687: Community Forums
688: Home
689: Home
690: Community Forums
691: Photo Gallery
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Home
695: Home
696: Photo Gallery
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Photo Gallery
703: Community Forums
704: Photo Gallery
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Photo Gallery
713: Photo Gallery
714: Community Forums
715: Photo Gallery
716: Member Screenshots

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:24 pm
Post subject: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I bought a 20 February Army Times this morning here on post and page 16 had a huge write up on armor, vehicle, and helicopter losses in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001. Here are some numbers from that article;
The Army has lost 85 helicopters broken down as;
-27 Apache's
-21 Black Hawks
-14 Chinooks
-23 Kiowa's
Armor and wheeled vehicles are as follows;
-20 M1 Tanks
-50 Bradley's
-20 Strykers
-20 M113's
-250 Humvees
-500 Medium/Heavy Trucks, FOX recon, mine clearers, and trailers
Additional numbers in the article are;
- 230 M1 were rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 700 in 2006.
- 318 Bradleys rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 600 in 2006.
- 219 M113's in 2005, the number will top 614 in 2006.
- 5,000 Humvees in 2005, the number will top 9,000 in 2006.
- 44 aircraft in 2005, the number will be close to 85 in 2006.
The Army has ordered 16 new Apaches, and 5 new Black Hawks. But cannot replace the 27 Kiowas because production lines are no longer open.
Quote- "There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".
There are currently 30,000 Humvees in theater, once the war is over, 6,000 will be "washed out" upon return to the states, the rest will be repaired and overhauled.
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each. The upgrades will reduce the M1 versions from 5 to 2, (M1A1 AIM and the M1A2 SEP). Bradleys will also be reduced to just 2 versions.
Army workshops have cranked up capacity from 11 million man hours in 2002, to 20 million hours in 2005. AMC sends half its repair work to private-sector firms to help with the load.
Crunch those numbers, pretty staggering. Just thought you all might be interested.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Over a 15 year period, it sounds like a bad 1-2 months in Vietnam (four months, if counting casualties), a testament to the sound designs of the equipment, their employment, and the infrastructure in place to get them back into the inventory.

To focus on a single type for comparison, there were 7,013 UH-1's (all variants) that served in Vietnam, of which 3,305 were destroyed.

Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827.

Vehicles would be more difficult to account for, because many never came home..they were transferred to the ARVN as units pulled out. This includes numerous armored vehicles, including mine.

Obviously, the costs have gone up, adjusted for 35-40 years of inflation.

Not too shabby, IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

"There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".

There will be plenty of work for civilians at the arsenals, and in associated businesses. If you consider the work to rebuild ONE M4 carbine to specification, that means a full parts bin, a technician who understands the design and how to run the gauges, plus a series of inspectors at both ends of the supply chain. Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?


Hi all!

Maple, the answer to your question is "some of each". The Army is using this as an opportunity to "spiral" new technologies and systems into service. Some of the old gear will be replaced with equivalent items. Some will be rebuilt, but to 0-hour condition with all the latest upgrades installed. And some items will be scrapped and replaced with improved and new systems. The idea is to push advanced technologies and systems into the field as they become available, and to keep existing equipment in peak condition, while culling older and less capable equipment out.

The Pentagram has a pretty comprehensive plan for maintaining our capabilities and continuing the Transformation effort, as long as our Congress will fund it. Of course, that is the hurdle, since they will bicker about the funding while wasting twice that amount on silly pet projects. The bottom line is that the health of the Army rests in the hands of the civilian leadership.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I still wonder what the criteria for that list included with the ground vehicles in mind.

Is it:
Operational loss (broke beyond theater level repair),
Castrophic loss (...BLOWN UP, BURN DOWN or something such as that !!)

As for Aircraft, thats simple since if hit by enemy fire/mechanical failure and crash, the airframe most likely is a total write-off. Rapid Deaccelaration with 'terra-firma' tends to condemn the aircraft as NMC.

Just a few thoughts,

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

[img][/img][img][/img]
That article mentions that most all vehicle losses were due to IED's and car bombs, so I'm assuming that all the vehicles were total losses. As great as the Stryker might be, the mesh grill attached to it sure makes it look awkward for use in an urban enviroment, even thought the mesh no-doubt saves the crew and vehicle from RPG attacks.
I noticed in an USA Today article in Fridays edition, that the Navy is retiring the F-14 Tomcat, after 32 years of service. Its replacement the F18E/F Super Hornet has a 214mph slower top speed, and costs 24.6 Million dollars more than the F14's cost when new, (47.3 mil for the F14 in 1974 VS 71.9mil for the F18 in 1999). Seems that the F14 costs to much to repair. An F14 requires 50 hours of maint for each 1 hour of flight, versus 5-10 hours of maint for the F18. Also mentioned was the fact that the F14 was aimed at dogfighting, (as in top-gun fame) but that it is no longer needed since jets now shoot missiles at each other from miles away. The last F14 to fly a combat mission was February 8th, when Cpt. William Sizemore flew over Iraq with another F14 from the USS Theodore Roosevelt and dropped bombs. The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.


Earlier generations have made similar claims for their favorite bird. At least one Vietnam War Navy or USMC jet jockey was quoted as saying "when you're out of F-8's, you're outta fighters!". Not everyone was happy to trade their F-8 Crusaders for the heavier, less agile, multi-role F-4. Laughing

David
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I don't see how the F-14 can be considered a 'Pure Fighter' It was designed as a Fleet Air Defense Interceptor and wasn't supposed to have to dogfight at all. It was supposed to engage targets at 100 miles with the Phoenix missle. Suppsoedly it would shoot six maissles and let the computer figure out which targets to aim them at

Now when the F-15 was designed the mantra was 'Not a pound for Air to Ground' Everything was made as light as possible including making wire bundles just long enough to reach the boxes they went to meaning that when I neaded to replace the Comm control panel on an early F-15A I had to reach way down into the side console and ghook up 3 cannon plugs by feel with about 2 " of slack. And if you got a cannon plug on crooked and bent a pin it could take hours to replace the connector with it's 125 pins. Al of it done way down inside the plane where you couldn't see what you were doing. Later A models had about 6" of slack in the cables. but pilots used to get the early birds whenever possible they swore that there was a performance difference with the lighter birds. We were told that over 100 pounds had been saved just by making sure no cable was longer than neccesary. The F-15 was the last of the real dogfighters. The F-16 can't dogfight because of the 'fly by wire' side stick controller. With the side stick the pilot is only suggesting to the flight control computer what manuever he wants to make. the computer decides how much control to apply making sure the airframe is not 'over Ged' As one F-15 pilot i debriefed put it "If I have a missle coming up my tail I WANT to over G the airframe. I don't want some computer overriding my inputs because 'I may over stress the airframe and shorten the life of the aircraft' I want to pull that airplane around as tight as I can and if I pop a few rivets that is fine with me. If I pull the wings off then I'll eject but If I get away with it I'll help do the over G inspection when I get home" By the way the highest recorded G load on an F-15 was 19Gs in air combat manuevering. The pilot momentarily blacked out but he mad it back to the base. The wingtips were 1.5" higher than they should be (as measured before it was 'one time flight' back to St Louis. I wish I could remember the tail number of that plane.

About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- bsmart
About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.


True enough, Bob. And I'm sure a source of endless frustration to many F-4 jocks (AF, Navy, and USMC alike) who found themselves point blank to an NVAF MiG-17 or MiG-21 and unable to do anything about it. (Inside arming distance for AIM-9, let alone AIM-7!) I was actually thinking more about the fact that our squadron pilots called the F-4 the "Rhino" for a reason. Laughing

Marginal armor content: The F-4 was built about as solid as a tank!

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

The "pure-fighter" quote came from the Friday, 17 February USA Today article on page 2A, not me. That particular quote came from Adm. William Fallon, the U.S. Pacific Commander and a former F14 weapons officer, (maybe he's biased). I don't know anything about F-8's. I wasn't aware that the Navy never had guns installed on their F-4 Phantoms. Seems like stupidity to me. I feel there will always be a need for a gun system on a jet for one reason or another.
I apologize now for the "marginal Armor content", I love jets and have a special fondness for F-105 Thunderchiefs (Thuds) as well as the F-100 Super Sabre, F-4 Phantom, and A-7 Corsair. WWII would be almost every plane the US built. Always wanted to be a pilot but my mild color blindness nix'd that.
But back to what started this thread, losses to U.S. equipment overseas. I was aware of the Vietnam helicopter losses through the research I've done on Hueys. This was merely an "informational" piece to share what I've read in Army Times. I'm just kind of amazed at the numbers, not so much the actual vehicle/aircraft losses themselves, but the dollar amounts for the losses. Of course the human losses outweigh everything, but the dollar costs are stagering. In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865, and an M1A2 costs 4.3 Million. See the following site for M1 info; www.globalsecurity.org.../lima.htm. Why it costs 7 million to upgrade a 4.3 million dollar tank, I don't know. I hope this clears things up.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865


Jeff,
I'm surprized at the figure for an M60. It was not my (or our, then) impression that the cost was even half that figure (at least up through the M60A1......A3's with all the goodies maybe....).
Can we get more than one source for the cost of, say, an M60A1 ~1970? I have doubts about the million-plus cost for the first two generations of 60's.

aha!...got it now...that price was for the latest/greatest M60A3 version:


www.fas.org/man/dod-10...-m60a3.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Yeah, I was researching M60A3's because the 3- M60's at Ft Irwin are all A3 models. The $1.291,865 price is from the "Army Master Data File Acquisition" listing. How acurate the cost is I do not know. You get what you pay for. At 4.3 Million dollars, It would be my hope that as an M1 track commander, that the 4.3 mill went towards protecting me and my crew from a 105mm buried in the ground, not just towards a computer system that drains my battery.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?


Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

The cost of a new tank would possible be far more. There is NO plant, with skilled workers present, that can build new tanks.

You would have to find skilled workers, possible train some of them, check out all the equipment that was placed in storage (that is if any of it was saved), service and repair all of it as needed before restarting production. So less you are planning on building 10,000+ tanks, the restarting process cost would make 7 million per vehicle look cheap.

You have to remember that we didn't need the old AFV plants to make steel vehicles because all FCS vehicles will be made out of sci-fi composits. I think we are lucky that we still have plants that can do repairs and upgrades to old and damaged hulls.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?

Also remember that most of the new tanks were built back in the 80's with 105's. I think there have been at least two generations of armor since then as well as considerably more advanced electronics. So yes they are more expensive but they are also conciderably more capable.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum