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M60A1 or A3? (Was M60A0s, A1s and A3s?)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Tanklord
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

Ain't going there...ain't touching that! Razz

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Okay, now I am thoroughly confused... The above graphic shows only the A0s with the Patton-style turrets?


Patton-style turrets? Do you mean M48?
Remember, the name Patton is used with the M46, M47, M48, and M60 type of medium/main battle tanks. You have me confuzed now.


- Neil_Baumgardner

I thought all A1s had Patton style turrets, and that A3s had the crimped nose style turrets...


The crimped nose style turret was the number one change between the M60A0s and the M60A1s. The A3 used the same hull and turret as the A1s with a long list of upgrades. Many of them inside with only a few showing on the outside. One major item that stands out (if it hasn't been removed) is a wind sensor (something like 18 or so inchs tall) near the left rear edge of the turret roof.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Neil! Hi Folks!
Patton-style turrets? Do you mean M48?
Remember, the name Patton is used with the M46, M47, M48, and M60 type of medium/main battle tanks. You have me confuzed now.


Right, yes, good point... I "think" I have the M46s, M47s (especially) and M48s down pat...



The crimped nose style turret was the number one change between the M60A0s and the M60A1s. The A3 used the same hull and turret as the A1s with a long list of upgrades. Many of them inside with only a few showing on the outside. One major item that stands out (if it hasn't been removed) is a wind sensor (something like 18 or so inchs tall) near the left rear edge of the turret roof.


Ugh, how the heck am I going to tell that from all these pics?... I may end up saying M60A1/A3 for a lot of these now...

Man, I knew this whole A0 discussion was going to be trouble when it first started...

<grumble, grumble> [mumbling] Why cant all these models be more easily identifiable... [/mumbling] <grumble, grumble>

Neil
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Ugh, how the heck am I going to tell that from all these pics?... I may end up saying M60A1/A3 for a lot of these now...


1. If you can see side loading air filters, it is an A1.
2. If you can see the wind sensor, it is an A3.
3. If you can see the range finder cover on the left (loader's) side of the turret,
3.a. openning is welded over, it's an A3. The A3 used a lazer ranger finder and only needed the cover on the right side (the T.C.'s side)
3.b. open is turned to face any direction but forward, its an A3.
4. If you can see the right cover and it has a trap door cover, it's an A3.

5. If you can see the right (TC's side)rear corner of the turret storage rack clear enough that you can tell the basket is one piece and there is no storage rack for a searchlight mounted off the rear edge of the air filter cover, it's an A3. On the A1s that area of the rack was bolted on and could be removed if the search light was being carried on the back of the turret. A1s upgraded to A3 status still had the two part basket and might or might not have the search light storage bracket.
6. Post the photos you need help with, I am sure someone here can ID most of them.

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Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A0s, A1s and A3s?

Thanks... In the interim, a lot of the listings are getting called "M60A1/A3." I'm waiting to hear back from Joe D on his confirmed A1s vs A3s...

I cant do it right now... But if someone wanted to go through the 159 pages of "tanks" on this link and pick out the A1s vs A3s... Well that would be really, really cool:

www.geocaching.com/see...e6cedf1f33

Neil
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:15 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A0s, A1s and A3s?

- Neil_Baumgardner
Thanks... In the interim, a lot of the listings are getting called "M60A1/A3." I'm waiting to hear back from Joe D on his confirmed A1s vs A3s...

I cant do it right now... But if someone wanted to go through the 159 pages of "tanks" on this link and pick out the A1s vs A3s... Well that would be really, really cool:

www.geocaching.com/see...e6cedf1f33

Neil


Not quit the M60 'expert', I always use the wind sensor on the back of the turret as well as the 'thermal shroud' to determine the 'A3'.

Never served on them, but always saw them around....

( Counting my lucky stars for being a 'Jedi-Tanker'... Cool )

Don

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Geoff_walden
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:13 am
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Neil! Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

Ugh, how the heck am I going to tell that from all these pics?... I may end up saying M60A1/A3 for a lot of these now...


1. If you can see side loading air filters, it is an A1.



This is true (or an M60), but the converse is not necessarily true. That is, a top-loading armored air cleaner does not automotically mean an A3. The M60A1 RISE tanks also had top-loading air cleaners. In fact, we had just about all the latest exterior mods that were not specifically A3-only (eg, we had T-142 tracks, we did not have the cut-out or bolt-in piece for searchlight stowage in our bustle racks - we had 1-piece bustle racks like the A3, we had the AN/VVS-2A searchlight - I think that was the right designation - the "pink" light - these were all on M60A1 RISE (Passive) tanks made ca. 1980).

To me, a dead giveaway for an A3 is the thermal shroud on the gun tube, although I suppose this COULD be removed on a display tank.

Oh, one other thing - AFAIK, all A3s had that little "muzzle brake" at the end of the heater exhaust pipe. Never did know what that thing was for - we didn't have that on our A1s.

Geoff Walden
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: M60A0s, A1s and A3s?

The identifiers for an A3 vs. late A1 are:
1. the crosswind sensor, it looks like a short, stubby antenna with a removable sensor that looks like an egg beater.
2. the thermal shroud on the gun tube that makes the unshrouded end of the barrel look skinny.
3. the armored flap on the right side sight blister.
4. the A3 has a larger "doghouse" or armored sight housing because of the Tank Thermal Sight (TTS).

I don't agree with the the left side identifier 3b listed above. Our tanks had the left blister that was open (empty) and they faced forward. It was plated over on the inside.

Some older tankers try to use the presence of smoke grenade launchers, mounts or grenade boxes as A3 identifiers, but many late use A1s had these features added as well.

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A0s, A1s and A3s?

The first batch of photos appear to be all straight M60s. Some are early turret and some are late turrets. The identifier between early and late is the placement of the turret lifting rings. If the layout of the rings is similar to the location of the rings on an M48, you have an early turret. This layout is one ring on the turret roof behind the mantlet and a ring on each rear corner of the turret sides.

A late turret has the lift rings in the same spot as the M60A1 and M60A3. A ring is located to the right and left of the mantlet with the third ring located centered on the turret roof behind the turret hatches.

I think someone here came up with the idea of calling the early turret the M60 and the later turret the M60A0, but I an not sure. Having a senior moment here. I will call them early or late.

Here is my identification of the tanks using the above criteria:


Kalamazoo, MI--M60 late



Fort Douglas UT (third one from the left)--M60 late



Nettleson MS--M60 late



Camp McKall NC--M60 late



Freedom Hill Park MI--M60 early



Florence SC--M60 late



Homer GA--M60 late



Grayling MI--M60 late



Little Rock AR--M60 late



Shelton NE--M60 late



Post Falls ID--M60 early



Westland MI--M60 early



Church Hill TN--M60 early



Baxter Springs KS--M60 late



Holley NY--M60 late



Millard NE--M60 early



Pentwater MI--M60 late



Temperence MI--M60 early


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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

Again, using my above identifiers, the tanks are all Slick M60s with some being early and others being late turrets. One thing I did notice is that some of these 60s have some very late fittings. They must have been in use with the National Guard for a long time.

Items someone used to ID M60A1 vs. M60A3, like the side loading air cleaner vs. top loading air cleaner goes out the window when you see an early and late M60 with side loading air cleaners. You will even see M48A5 tanks with the top loading air cleaners.

Little Rock AR--M60 late



Monona IA--M60 early



Camp McCain MS--M60 late



Millersburg PA--M60 early



Milford MI--M60 early



Sturgis IN--M60 late



Duluth NY--M60 late



Annapolis MD--M60 late



Alexander City AL--M60 early



Athens TN--M60 early



Chicago IL--M60 early



Rigby ID--M60 early



Kingsport TN--M60 early



Holland MI--M60 late



Knoxville TN--M60 early



Manchester MI--M60 late



St Louis MI--M60 late



Caldwell ID--M60 early



Alpharetta GA--M60 late



Grayling MI--M60 late


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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

Hi Sabot! Hi Folks!

- Sabot

Items someone used to ID M60A1 vs. M60A3, like the side loading air cleaner vs. top loading air cleaner goes out the window when you see an early and late M60 with side loading air cleaners. You will even see M48A5 tanks with the top loading air cleaners.


I have to disagree with you Sir.

If we are looking at a vehicle that could be an A1 or an A3 and it has side loaders, then I think we can safely say it's an A1. A3s never used the side loading. A1s that were upgraded were switched to top loaders. Only A1/A3 types of vehicle that still has side loaders would be A1s.

As for the M60A0 early and late vehicles, that is a different problem. While they all started out with side loaders, I don't think we can safely use the filter box as an item for I.D.ing that version.

As for the M48s, the top loading filter boxs can help I.D. the A5 version only.

The side loading filter box should ONLY be used to I.D. an A1 that was NEVER upgraded.

Hope this clears up my muddy thinking about filter boxes. Smile
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:36 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A0?

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Sabot! Hi Folks!

- Sabot

Items someone used to ID M60A1 vs. M60A3, like the side loading air cleaner vs. top loading air cleaner goes out the window when you see an early and late M60 with side loading air cleaners. You will even see M48A5 tanks with the top loading air cleaners.


I have to disagree with you Sir.

If we are looking at a vehicle that could be an A1 or an A3 and it has side loaders, then I think we can safely say it's an A1. A3s never used the side loading. A1s that were upgraded were switched to top loaders. Only A1/A3 types of vehicle that still has side loaders would be A1s.

As for the M60A0 early and late vehicles, that is a different problem. While they all started out with side loaders, I don't think we can safely use the filter box as an item for I.D.ing that version.

As for the M48s, the top loading filter boxs can help I.D. the A5 version only.

The side loading filter box should ONLY be used to I.D. an A1 that was NEVER upgraded.

Hope this clears up my muddy thinking about filter boxes. Smile
Sgt, Scouts Out!
I agree that side loading air cleaners will ID a vehicle as NOT being an A3. What I am saying is that top loading air cleaner can't be used to say a vehicle isn't an M60A1 because there are M60A1s with top loading air cleaners.

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:47 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A0s, A1s and A3s?

Just to stir the pot a little... whats the external differences between the M60A1 and the M60A1 AOS, M60A1 RISE, M60A1 RPE?

Cool

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:44 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A3? (Was M60A0s, A1s and A3s?)

Okay, some more pics - this time is it an A1 or A3?

Red Hill PA



Hanson KY



Halstead PA





Roland OK



Lubbock TX



Johnston RI (says its an A3)



Dyersville IA



Cassville MO





Green River WY



Allegany NY





Neil
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1 or A3? (Was M60A0s, A1s and A3s?)

- Neil_Baumgardner
Okay, some more pics - this time is it an A1 or A3?


Neil


All are M60A3s, they have either the telltale crosswind sensor, thermal shroud or the LRF cover. Just a couple still retain the doghouse for the TTS.

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