±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 590
Total: 590
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: CPGlang
02: Member Screenshots
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Downloads
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Your Account
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Statistics
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Statistics
60: Community Forums
61: Downloads
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: CPGlang
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Your Account
75: Community Forums
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: CPGlang
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Home
106: Photo Gallery
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Member Screenshots
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Your Account
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Home
133: Statistics
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Your Account
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: CPGlang
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Downloads
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Home
173: Member Screenshots
174: Search
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Downloads
188: Photo Gallery
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Downloads
220: Your Account
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Downloads
224: Your Account
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Member Screenshots
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Downloads
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Photo Gallery
255: Downloads
256: Downloads
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Your Account
267: Photo Gallery
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Member Screenshots
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Statistics
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Downloads
298: Photo Gallery
299: Photo Gallery
300: Home
301: Downloads
302: Photo Gallery
303: Search
304: CPGlang
305: Photo Gallery
306: Your Account
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: CPGlang
311: Community Forums
312: Home
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Home
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Downloads
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Home
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Downloads
348: Statistics
349: Community Forums
350: Statistics
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Downloads
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Your Account
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Member Screenshots
371: Community Forums
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Your Account
375: Statistics
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Statistics
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Downloads
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Home
414: Photo Gallery
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Statistics
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Photo Gallery
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Photo Gallery
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Downloads
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Downloads
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: CPGlang
455: CPGlang
456: Community Forums
457: Downloads
458: Community Forums
459: Your Account
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Downloads
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: CPGlang
478: Home
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Your Account
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Photo Gallery
490: Downloads
491: Your Account
492: Community Forums
493: Member Screenshots
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Your Account
519: Photo Gallery
520: CPGlang
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Member Screenshots
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Downloads
528: Photo Gallery
529: Your Account
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Member Screenshots
536: Member Screenshots
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Downloads
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Home
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Community Forums
557: News
558: Your Account
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Statistics
563: Community Forums
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Downloads
570: Photo Gallery
571: Your Account
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Your Account
575: CPGlang
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Home
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Statistics
589: Community Forums
590: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:51 pm
Post subject: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Last night I received an e-mail from Ed Heasley saying they were planning on moving the Elephant this morning. After some soul searching and 'Telecommuting' into work very early this morning to make sure I could afford to take off I decided to take at least the morning off and drive up to Aberdeen to watch and document the effort.

The tow truck arrives


First we push


Then we pull


The HETT arrives


Hooking up the cables


The first tug


Almost there!


Loaded up


We got us a convoy!!


There was one casualty of the move. There was a 4-5' black snake that insisted on climbing onto the tracks and drive sproket. is now 2 1' snakes, 1 2' snake, and a lot of goo!


They left the Elephant on the HETT tonight in the motorpool and will drop it at the Refurb center in the morning.

Two final notes - Ed asked me to let everyone know that I already gave him copies of all the pictures I took today so there is no need to send him any! And I would have had his out an hour ago but Firefox decided to update itself just before I hit submit and I lost the entire message!

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Great pics Bob!

I take it the tracks "rolled" okay? Otherwise I'd have worried about the tracks ripping off, like the Mile of Tanks ones... Didnt they try to use TWO M88s last time they tried to move it for just that reason? Seems like they did it rather easily this time...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

The background to the sudden change in the elephant's status

As I understand it the Commanding General asked at her staff meting why 'the old tank' was still sitting at the railhead. Dr Atwater explained the long history about not being able to get it moved. Then she asked something to the staff like 'You mean we can't move a tank?' After the meeting the Colnel called the recovery section chief and asked something like 'Chief why can't we move a tank?' The Chief ( a Chief Warrant Officer) said 'Sir we haven't been asked, of course we can move a tank'. In all fairness this has gone on so long the folks involved now are not the ones who had problems years ago.

Anyway The ball got rolling quickly. The Warrants and NCOs checked things like weight and balance, got clearances for a heavy move across base and arranged a base police escort. They were surprised that the Elephant uses an electric transmission (The comment was they had hybred drive 50 years ago? I told them there is at least one other similar vehicle (The T23) in the museums possecion. Rolling Eyes )

This was obviously a well qualified group. There were several Warrants, and most of the rest were E6s and E7s with a few civilians. Several sported Senior Instructor badges on their uniforms. They quickly layed out the planned operation, had an alternative prepared if they had trouble loading like they did last time. While waiting for the HETT to arrive they pulled the Elephant forward and back about 100yards to loosen up the track. The pictures were taken from so far back while they were winching it up because they insisted that everyone not actively involved be further away from the action than the cable was long (just in case Shocked ) Everything went very smoothly, if not as quickly as some thought it could.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Great pics, great story. I can't wait to see this monster restored.
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:22 am
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Thanks for the pictures Bob

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:39 am
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Really great news !! I'm happy to see this and really hope that this very rare tank will be now better preserved !!

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
jcneel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Victoria, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Are they actually going to work on restoring this one, or did they just wanted to have it moved?

Where did it get moved to? Is is now over by the warehouse or did they just put it in one of the yards?

Great set of photos.

I, too would love to see this one restored.

Any more news on when the Tiger I is coming back??

Thanks for the update.

Chris Neel
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:31 am
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

- jcneel
Are they actually going to work on restoring this one, or did they just wanted to have it moved?


Well they have wanted it moved for years Rolling Eyes It does not have a 'slot' in the refurb schedule at the moment. Right now refurb is working on the Vickers Mk 6 light tank, the Mae West, and the Firefly. The Firefly got it's first primer coat this week so it is occupying the Paint Booth for a while.


Where did it get moved to? Is is now over by the warehouse or did they just put it in one of the yards?


Well by now (He looks at the clock) it should be unloaded outside the refurb shop. It will sit on the concrete pad outside the paint booth (next to the 'Vigilant' SP gatling gun) until they decide to put it in the paint booth.


Any more news on when the Tiger I is coming back??


No update on the Tiger. I am hoping that the 'notification system' that Ed used for the Elephant was a dry run for how I will find out about the Tiger (although I am hoping for a little more lead time). Rest assured as soon as I have any news I can pass on I will let everyone know. But there may be a 'News Embargo' when the Tiger comes back. That will probably be a much higher profile event and there is talk about the Air Force and Ordnance Public Affairs folks wanting to control the announcements. I just hope I don't get completely frozen out of things when the time comes.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:41 am
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Well the good news is it's an open post (for the most part). All you need is to get the heads up and anyone can come on post that day Wink - that is assuming you get the heads up...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:39 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

- Neil_Baumgardner
Well the good news is it's an open post (for the most part). All you need is to get the heads up and anyone can come on post that day Wink - that is assuming you get the heads up...

Neil


If it comes in it will come in to the Airfield, which is a restricted area I'm pretty sure. I've told them I still have my GI drivers license stamped 'Flightline Authorized' if Dr Atwater needs someone to drive up to the plane Wink

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:42 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

Good point, depends on whether they leave it in the "behind the fence" area... Since its already been refurbed thanks to Mr Wheatcroft, I wouldnt think it would need to go through the refurb facility... So what do they plan to do with it anyway? Park it outside the museum?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Garry_Redmon
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 398
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:05 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

- bsmart
- Neil_Baumgardner
Well the good news is it's an open post (for the most part). All you need is to get the heads up and anyone can come on post that day Wink - that is assuming you get the heads up...

Neil


If it comes in it will come in to the Airfield, which is a restricted area I'm pretty sure. I've told them I still have my GI drivers license stamped 'Flightline Authorized' if Dr Atwater needs someone to drive up to the plane Wink


Is coming in by air transport a sure thing? Is there a possibility it could be sent over by container ship? That was one problem when the museum acquired the JagdPanzer IV from the UK. It was shipped over and spent a long time sitting on the dock. During that time the persiscopes and other equipment were stolen. I do hope they fly it directly to APG to avoid that from happening.

_________________
armorfortheages.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

I think there are several problems with Sea transport

1) This won't fit inside a standard 8' wide container. That means it has be shipped in a non container ship. Most of thoise today are RO-ROs. But most commercial RO-ROs are set up for consumer vehicles and don't have deck height needed or decks that will handle the concentrated loading. On top of that I doubt the shipping line would want it to be towed across their decks with the steel tracks Smile

2) Liability The combination of large (heavy) cargo and the value of the cargo makes it something that most shippers don't want to touch. I was talking with someone who handles liability for a shipping company and he said that his management would avoid that job like a plague. He said some 'weird loads' like that are done for the PR value (UPS or FedEx shipping animals or museum exhibits for example). He said the North Atlantic is especially troublesome for heavy delicate loads. (If you look at the 'plimsol markings' that all cargo vessels have to show how much freeboard they have 'Winter North Atlantic' requires the most freeboard which equates to the most reserve bouancy because of the rough conditions)

3) Tracking and security - you covered this pretty well

As I said a while back it was already sceduled to be transported on a C-5. The plane that crashed at Dover a while back was supposed to have brought it on the return flight of that trip to deliver equipment overseas. That crash and the subsequent fleet grounding until the cause was determined totally screwed up C-5 flight schedules for the forseeable future so it is a wait and see situation.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

hey bob,
who was surprised to find that the elephant had an electric trans??
the army (among other initials) has/have studied that exact elephant time on and time off for years. you would think that we, not just the u.s., would have developed such a "hybrid" by now. ya, es ist eine Porsche!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: FLASH UPDATE -- The Abedeen Elephant has been moved

I have found tht most troops involved in day to day operations don't relly understand the history behind their profession. There are of course exceptions. The studies and evaluations were archived long ago and the current generation unerstands Diesels as old technology and turbines as new technology, but think of electric generators and motors as used in locomotives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum