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M48 but what designation?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:40 am
Post subject: M48 but what designation?

Greetings,
I shot a bunch of details of an M48 on display at Volk Field in Wisconsin (a few overall shots attached). However, it confuses me. Note the lack of the grille configuration on the rear, no secondary idler wheel by the drive sprocket, and the lack of of a commander's cupola turret but rather, an MG mount.

Is this a straight M48?

Second question, where would one look for a serial number on this vehicle. I shot photos of several stamped and cast numbers on the hull and turret.

Thanks in advance!
John A-G
Iola, Wisconsin

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Sabot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Yes, I would say an M48 A-nothing. I believe the A1 had the standard cupola seen on A2/A3s. The engine layout on the original M48 was very similar to the layout on the M46 and M47 Patton.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Hi John! Hi Folks!

I have to agree with Sabot, that's a M48A0.

The engine is mo-gas or gasoline. The vehicles with the rear grill doors had diesel engines and a differert air flow layout.

The fact that it doesn't have a secondary idler wheel by the drive sprocket doesn't mean anything. Somewhere during the M48's service, that item was removed from all M48s.

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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Thank you Roy and Rob! I plowed through Hunnicutt's book covering the Patton, and I have to say, the secondary idler wheel has thrown me on a number of occasions. I have shot several pictures of monument M47s that conform in most respects to a standard M47 EXCEPT that they lacked the secondary idler. I will dig out pics of these as well.

Best Regards from Wisconsin,
John A-G

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Well it could be an M48C. That was the designation given to some early ones that were for training only. Most books show them as 'mild steel' but I've also read that the armor was defective so they were designated for training. I've never seen one so I don't know if any survive or if they are marked similar to the early M60s that had bad armor and were marked TRAINING TANK ONLY in welding bead in front of the drivers hatch

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oldertop
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).
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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).


Good discussion going on here. If there are other details of this particular tank at Camp Dodge that would help identify it, please let me know...I shot about 100 details of the exterior.

John

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oldertop
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

One thing that maybe a ID key is the M2 sky mount on the commanders postion, the only time I've seen a mount like that is on M51 heavy trank recovery vehicles, these mount have a spring loaded balancer system to make tracking aircraft smoother.
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:34 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).


Older Top

I've noticed a couple around here.

On a side note: I assume the 'grill doors' are significant on the M103 series ? I have run into 2 around here. Radcliff Tourism & (at least) one in RMP. Any ideas?

Don
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
One thing that maybe a ID key is the M2 sky mount on the commanders postion, the only time I've seen a mount like that is on M51 heavy trank recovery vehicles, these mount have a spring loaded balancer system to make tracking aircraft smoother.


I just checked Hunnicutt and it appears that the 50 cal mount may not be standard. Hunnicutt says the Chrysler designed commanders hatch had 4 periscopes at the base. I don't see any on this one and they are pretty prominent in pictures in Hunnicutt. So it appears that the original commanders cupola (both the open and armored versions are called cupolas in Hunnicutt being referred tto as Chrysler or M1 (Which was desined by AAI)) was replaced at some time in the past with the one shown here

Also all M48(a0) had the small driver hatch. Looking down from above the left side of the small hatch is more rounded than the right side where the pivot post was. The large hatch became standard and all large hatch were equiped with the new M1 cupola and designated M48A1. So it would be interesting if you have any clear pictures of the drivers hatch to see which kind it is.

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oldertop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:03 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Yes on the M103s the hump type engine deck and the rear opening grill doors are an indicater of a dieselized vehicle (M103A2)..Like its smaller brother the M48 the 103 was always under more range development, the M103 was getting about 75 miles to a full fuel load from the gasoline fueled version.
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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- bsmart
I just checked Hunnicutt and it appears that the 50 cal mount may not be standard. Hunnicutt says the Chrysler designed commanders hatch had 4 periscopes at the base. I don't see any on this one and they are pretty prominent in pictures in Hunnicutt. So it appears that the original commanders cupola (both the open and armored versions are called cupolas in Hunnicutt being referred tto as Chrysler or M1 (Which was desined by AAI)) was replaced at some time in the past with the one shown here

Also all M48(a0) had the small driver hatch. Looking down from above the left side of the small hatch is more rounded than the right side where the pivot post was. The large hatch became standard and all large hatch were equiped with the new M1 cupola and designated M48A1. So it would be interesting if you have any clear pictures of the drivers hatch to see which kind it is.


BSmart,

I am attaching closeups of the commander's hatch (as you can see, there was provision for only one periscope) and the neighboring hatch.
John

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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

BSmart and OldTop,

I feel horribly remiss...in about 100 photos, I cannot find a clear view of the Driver's hatch! One image attached that looks down over the gun mantlet and you can sort of see the edges of the driver's hatch.

A rear deck and profile of commander's cupola attached as well

John Adams-Graf
Iola, Wisconsin

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Looking at the new pictures of the commanders hatch the periscopes (or at theast their protective frames) are there it just wasn't obvious in the first shot. There are provisions for 4 periscopes. Only one is fitted (to the rear) but you can see the protective frames above the one for the left and right quadrant and one between the gun mount.

When I get home I'll look at Hunnicutt again. The picture looking down at the drivers hatch with the gun barrel hiding most of it may give us enough clues (It has to do with the periscopes and braces to hold the hatch in the open position) but since it appears that the drivers cupola is the proper one for an M48(a0) the drivers hatch just becomes confirming evidence

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jagjetta
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:44 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Bob,
Thanks so much! you are doing some fine sleuthing. I will be back in the Camp Dodge area again next weekend so could shoot more pics if necessary. Please let me know if there any other views that will help confirm the identity.

Have a good weekend!
John

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