±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 630
Total: 630
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Member Screenshots
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Statistics
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Your Account
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Downloads
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Statistics
40: Home
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Photo Gallery
48: Downloads
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Downloads
58: Member Screenshots
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Home
66: Your Account
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Your Account
70: CPGlang
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Downloads
74: Community Forums
75: Your Account
76: Photo Gallery
77: Downloads
78: Community Forums
79: Downloads
80: Home
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Your Account
86: Statistics
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Photo Gallery
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Downloads
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Community Forums
124: Member Screenshots
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Downloads
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Photo Gallery
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: News
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Downloads
156: Community Forums
157: Search
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: CPGlang
165: Photo Gallery
166: News
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Downloads
175: Photo Gallery
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Your Account
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Downloads
184: CPGlang
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Downloads
188: Home
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Home
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: CPGlang
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Your Account
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Downloads
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Downloads
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: News Archive
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Downloads
245: Member Screenshots
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Statistics
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Your Account
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Photo Gallery
273: Photo Gallery
274: Photo Gallery
275: News
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: News
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Photo Gallery
296: Member Screenshots
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Downloads
301: Member Screenshots
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Your Account
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: CPGlang
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Downloads
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Home
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Downloads
335: Community Forums
336: News
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Photo Gallery
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Photo Gallery
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Downloads
374: Downloads
375: Community Forums
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Home
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Member Screenshots
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Downloads
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: Statistics
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: Community Forums
416: Your Account
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: CPGlang
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: News
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: CPGlang
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Downloads
459: News Archive
460: News
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Downloads
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Member Screenshots
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Community Forums
486: Downloads
487: Your Account
488: Member Screenshots
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Downloads
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Home
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Downloads
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Member Screenshots
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: Photo Gallery
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Downloads
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Home
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Photo Gallery
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Downloads
561: CPGlang
562: CPGlang
563: Community Forums
564: Downloads
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Home
570: Community Forums
571: Home
572: CPGlang
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Downloads
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Home
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Downloads
598: Home
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Downloads
603: Photo Gallery
604: Home
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Photo Gallery
624: Photo Gallery
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Downloads
629: Downloads
630: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Floatation Kit?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

Yet again, I'm surprised no one ever tested this with an Abrams...

Although I wonder if there might be some sort of difference fording with a turbine vice a diesel?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

Interesting pics, AJ...slick 60 with 'dozer blade and M60A1, so totally different vehicles. Also interesting is that Bell 47 helicopter (forget Army nomenclature) and the lack of any Armor & Engineer Board markings on the M60A1. These pics are before my time at the Board, but lack of markings are mysterious (they had distinctive markings going back to well before WWII). No "test operation", no TEC-EBD. This is a curious series of pictures as there is no indication of what unit is conducting the operation.
I have a suspicion that it might be the Armor School, but even they should have markings....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

- Neil_Baumgardner
Yet again, I'm surprised no one ever tested this with an Abrams...

Although I wonder if there might be some sort of difference fording with a turbine vice a diesel?

Neil


Intake/exhaust issues, maybe? Or no perceived need?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

- Doug_Kibbey
- Neil_Baumgardner
Yet again, I'm surprised no one ever tested this with an Abrams...

Although I wonder if there might be some sort of difference fording with a turbine vice a diesel?

Neil


Intake/exhaust issues, maybe? Or no perceived need?


....ISSUES!!! Thats an understatement.
I may be incorrect, but I believe that the fording device was first assembled/used with the Marine Corps M1A1HC's. They had a definite need for beach assaults.

I'd had never seen of even heard of such a thing, until the early 90's when we drew M1A1HC's. Other than the 'turret pump seal', which only inflated to seal the turret ring.

As for 'deliberate fording experiences', the worst that comes to mind was in 1991. Try crossing the Imjim River (Korea) at a ford site, but being a night move the lead vehicle crossed at an unapproved (and untested) location. I was the 5th tank in the Company column, screaming on the FM, of the error.

Getting swamped in the midst of the Imjim river, at 0200 hrs in January, with the tank acting initially as an icebreaker and having 'cross current Ice flow' getting lodged in the side turret bustle rack, the turret ring, and on the hull, Shocked .....NOT MY IDEA OF A FUN TIME.

Luckily we all made it, but talk about serious pucker factor!!! (... my driver learned why he should ALWAYS torque the vision block locking nuts. Freezing water pouring into your lap, while you are literally submerged, is a bad thing!! Mr. Green )

Interesting subject for the R&D period. Guess I need to do some indepth reading.

Anyone else have any information?

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

Deep Fording, what a concept,

Brought on by the old "The Soviets can deep ford/swim, so we have to" mentality. Killed the T-95 and also made an unrealistic requirement for the Bradley, which later was dropped.

AJ2, those pictures are quite interesting, but I can't help but wonder if the M60A1 is from a later time period/exercise. The M60 is either a PV or one of the initial batch made. It still has the "Crouse-Hinds" searchlight stowage mount and has not been upgraded to IR with the VSS-1 system.

BTW, after seeing Doug's pictures of fording at Knox a few months ago I did a little research. Those are actually called "Under Water Fording Kits" and were made specifically for the Army. The "Deep Ford Kit" that I was familiar with is basically the same the Marines used for shore landing. The only difference was the exhaust stack, which the Army did not use. Supposedly it took 8 hours to prep a tank for it's use (the underwater kit), but could be reduced to half and hour with some permanent changes to a tank, bilge pump installation being one.

The M60A1 in the picture (9B5553) was one of the initial batch of production M60A1's sent to Fort Knox for evaluation and testing. I've seen other pictures of her sporting the M9 Dozer kit and other interesting stuff. Across the front slope to the right she was marked with a yellow bridge classification marker and "TEST OPERATION" centered in what looks like 4" white block letters. No other markings other than some un-identifiable stuff on the front fender braces.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

Don,

Man, river crossing in Korea, what fun.

With the introduction of the M1 to Korea crossing rivers got to be a much greater challenge. My first tour and Don’s time there the road networks were pretty crude, so most of our main avenues of movement involved the river beds during the winter/dry season. The Imjin was another story. We had to have the engineers prep the river bed with gravel/spoil so we wouldn't swamp the intakes with water. SOP usually was to mark the left and right limits with engineer stakes and topped with a chem-lite, IR if possible or at least facing us inside the "U" to maintain light discipline. I remember during Team Spirit '91 gingerly entering rivers only to back up quickly when the water started to enter our intakes. Very frustrating. The DIV CAV at that time were still using M60A3's. They had no trouble crossing areas that would stop us cold. The TM's state the M1 and M60 series have about the same shallow ford capability, which technically is true, but in reality the M60 can ford much more easily beyond shallow ford restrictions because the crew can have the tank draw air for the engine through the turret. Just inflate the turret seal and turn off the air cleaner blowers and plug the elbows. In the case of the CAV they had the newer VEDES setup which eliminated the need for elbow plugs.

The turbine can be a much greater challenge to fording. The need for high volumes of air and the greater susceptibility to dirt are just a few. Unlike the M60 there are no provisions to draw air from the turret, so a special air intake had to be made. That’s why when you see M1's coming ashore they have two stacks instead of the single rear mount. Other unique considerations are the Pre-Cleaner scavenge pump and oil cooler fans, both of which have to be disabled when submerged. Any M1 tanker that has experienced water in the intake plenum knows of the familiar sonic boom sound the engine gives off when ingesting water, with the instant loss of power. It doesn’t take much either. Enough water and the engine self-destructs. Once the air filters get wet you loose a lot of power and they are pretty much ruined, needing replacement, since the dust turns into a concrete like substance when dry. All in all I’m very glad the Army did not have/ require their M1's deep ford.

Like Don said, until the USMC got the M1's, we never heard of such a thing. The M1/105 TM only addresses fording "Without Kit" up to 4 feet and "With Kit" a notation of "Kit not yet available".

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
armyjunk2
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

another swimmer
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

Gotta be a test swim,

Notice she's loaded with ammo boxes for weight doesn't even have the Gunner's periscope installed yet. In fact the gun mantel doesn't even look right.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

- Joe_D
Gotta be a test swim,

Notice she's loaded with ammo boxes for weight doesn't even have the Gunner's periscope installed yet. In fact the gun mantel doesn't even look right.

Joe D


No missile-guidance transmitter box.

Interesting photo. I was, among other things like being a crewman, a safety and salvage SCUBA diver for the Armor Board. We never, ever, conducted a swimex or fordex in test operations with more than two people on board the vehicle (driver and TC), as it would just complicate rescue efforts if worst happened (the prospect of entering the water with moving tracks is a daunting one, trust me). Is that not somebody in loader's hatch?

Also, if trying to simulate weight and balance, why is there no .50 mounted...not even a mockup? (We had 'em, for weight and visual simulation).

I'm going to puzzle over this photo for a while....


Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

It's a prototype similar to the one at the Patton Museum. Note the cupola is offset from the turret? Production versions weren't like that.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Floatation Kit?

- MarkHolloway
It's a prototype similar to the one at the Patton Museum. Note the cupola is offset from the turret? Production versions weren't like that.


Good point. I think it's a glorified "photo-op" to demonstrate "amphibiosity".
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum