±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 655
Total: 655
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Home
10: Photo Gallery
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Home
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Member Screenshots
36: Community Forums
37: Member Screenshots
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Statistics
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Downloads
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: CPGlang
58: Photo Gallery
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: CPGlang
66: Community Forums
67: Your Account
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Home
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Downloads
86: Photo Gallery
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Statistics
94: Community Forums
95: Member Screenshots
96: Photo Gallery
97: Downloads
98: Home
99: Statistics
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: Downloads
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Downloads
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: CPGlang
133: Photo Gallery
134: Downloads
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: CPGlang
139: Member Screenshots
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: News
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Downloads
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Home
175: News
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Your Account
179: Community Forums
180: News Archive
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: CPGlang
185: Photo Gallery
186: Member Screenshots
187: Community Forums
188: CPGlang
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Statistics
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Photo Gallery
205: Statistics
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: CPGlang
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Downloads
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Member Screenshots
238: Community Forums
239: Home
240: Photo Gallery
241: Photo Gallery
242: News
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Photo Gallery
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Downloads
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Home
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Statistics
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Statistics
303: Community Forums
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Downloads
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Member Screenshots
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: News Archive
317: Photo Gallery
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Your Account
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Home
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Downloads
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Downloads
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Home
352: Home
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: CPGlang
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Home
365: Your Account
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: Photo Gallery
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Downloads
374: Your Account
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Photo Gallery
411: Home
412: Member Screenshots
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Member Screenshots
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Home
423: Downloads
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: News Archive
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Home
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Home
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Home
455: Home
456: Downloads
457: Home
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Your Account
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: News Archive
465: News
466: Downloads
467: Your Account
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Home
478: Community Forums
479: News Archive
480: Home
481: Home
482: Home
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Downloads
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: News
499: Photo Gallery
500: Home
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Downloads
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Photo Gallery
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Community Forums
519: Downloads
520: Your Account
521: CPGlang
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Downloads
531: Community Forums
532: Downloads
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Downloads
541: Downloads
542: Home
543: Downloads
544: Community Forums
545: CPGlang
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Home
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Downloads
552: Downloads
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Statistics
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Photo Gallery
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Home
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: Home
578: Downloads
579: Community Forums
580: Downloads
581: Home
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Photo Gallery
596: Community Forums
597: Home
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Member Screenshots
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Home
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Photo Gallery
616: Photo Gallery
617: Downloads
618: Downloads
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Member Screenshots
624: Photo Gallery
625: Photo Gallery
626: Photo Gallery
627: CPGlang
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Home
631: Downloads
632: Home
633: Home
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Supporters
639: Community Forums
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Home
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Statistics
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Member Screenshots
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: CPGlang

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Spotting Rifles
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:42 pm
Post subject: Spotting Rifles

How are spotting rifles employed? I've always thought the spotting rifle is fired until it hits the target. Then the main weapon is fired. If this is correct then it would be dangerously time consuming. I'm curious because pilots of the XM551 had a spotting rifle on some versions.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

Mark,
In my experience, spotting rifles were mostly about getting the range. I've never seen one on an M551, but maybe there was a time before the choke reticle on the Sheridan was introduced that one was tried as a way of ranging before firing the main gun.

Later, of course, a proper laser rangefinder was made available and retrofitted, as there was no rangefinder at all previous to that on the M551.

D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

On the M40 infantry 106mm Recoilless Rifle, the .50 calibre spotting rifle is a big bolt action (?) that is mounted on top of the main tube. The round is shorter than the conventional .50 cal. Its ballistics are matched to the main projectile. So the gunner snaps off a spotting round and everyone watches. He then adjusts his point of aim and belches off the main round. When everyone's lungs refill and their hearts go back to regular rhythm, they can do it all over again.

From a gaming website:
It is a semi-automatic weapon with a 20-round detachable magazine. Note that this rifle fires a round that is slightly smaller than the one used by the Browning HMG. The bullet is shorter, lighter and has a lower muzzle velocity

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Spotter-Tracer, M48A1/ M48A2
Caliber: 12.7 x 77 mm
Weapon Used In: M8C Spotting Rifle
Weight Complete: 0.107 kg
Length Complete: 114.81 mm
Packaging: 10 rounds per cardboard box
Packaging Weight: 1.070 kg
NOTE: The projectile contains a tracer element and an incendiary filler. On impact, the incendiary filler produces a puff of white smoke which aids in adjusting fire. The tracer element burns out at 1500 m. The spotter-tracer round is designed so that its trajectory closely matches the trajectory of the M40 recoilless rifle service munitions.

Game stats for the M8C:

Length: 114 cm
WT empty: 11.072kg
WT loaded: 13.989kg
cal: 12.7×77mm
Muzzle Vel: 1732 fps
eff rng: 1500m
max rng: 3100m
type of fire: semiautomatic
ROF: (SS) 40 Rpm
feed device: 20 round box magazine
Feed device wt: 2.917kg
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

It just seems to me that this process would be way too time consuming. Here is a photo of an XM-551 with the spotting rifle port above the coax port. This is the one at Ft. Knox.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:13 am
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
On the M40 infantry 106mm Recoilless Rifle, the .50 calibre spotting rifle is a big bolt action (?) that is mounted on top of the main tube. The round is shorter than the conventional .50 cal. Its ballistics are matched to the main projectile.


We operated M40 RR's in my Air Cav Troop in Vietnam (off of M151A1C's and two "unauthorized" M37 "Beeps"). My recollection is that the spotting rifle was semi-auto (with a big honkin' magazine), but I'm open to correction. It is correct that the round was ballistically matched to the main round, but there was not the expectation of a 1:1 correlation of a hit when fired. That would take forever unless the crew was shooting at a distant bunker (and probably unoccupied, or at least soon would be after a spotting round shot or two).

In practical terms, it was more likely to be used in perimeter defense, and at shorter ranges, though the RR crews practiced on more distant targets. I was in the Scout Section, so this was not a primary duty of mine.

Don, I am in possession of a manuscript photo of the spotter rifle* installed on the XM551 as of the last few days, but as it's in preparation to go to press by the author, I'm not in a position to post it. However, I'll let you know as soon as the publication is available, which should be very soon. Wink

*NOT the same device as on the M40. Different caliber and designation entirely.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

Doug, What's the name of the book? I might like to buy it.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

- MarkHolloway
Doug, What's the name of the book? I might like to buy it.


David or I will post something as soon as it's out.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

I remembered it as a big bolt-action, but the text I posted called it a semi-auto. Any pictures of the spotting rifle show a tubular receiver.

Thanks for the mention of the inexact ballistic match. In theory any projectile can be matched to another for a given distance. The intervening distances of course the faster one (likely) will have a flatter flight.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:42 am
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

They are actually called ranging guns.....they are not rifles....most are heavy machine guns.

Both the late version Centurions and the early version Chieftains used them.

They work very well....and in an era before stereoscopic rangefinders or lasers to determine range all that tank crews had was the Mk.1 eyeball with well practiced range estimation.

The ranging guns allowed the crew to fire round at the target to confirm the range to the target.....they did not need to hit the target....the gunner could adjust the point of impact of the ranging gun (which was boresighted to the main gun) to the target.

Now....a ranging gun also usually only fired tracer rounds....so the fall of shot could be easily observed...and the key would be to use the ranging gun at ranges below trace burn out for the round....usually a .50 Cal round. If targets beyond trace burn out were engaged and the ranging gun was used then multiple rounds (about 3) could be fired to get a larger fall of shot and observable splash....the inherent problem with this is at longer ranges the rounds will spread over the Beaten Zone making it harder for the gunner to adjust the sight picture to the target.

Ideally the ranging gun rounds would be fired and then the fall of shot adjusted to the target by the gunner using standard corrections in elevation and azimuth....the ranging gun would have a similar trajectory of the main gun out to certain ranges....in the perfect world the gunner would get a hit on the target with the ranging gun and in very short order the main gun would be firing and getting a first round hit.

The key is for the Commander to get a good intital range estimation in the fire order to the gunner....then only minor corrections would be needed.

Like any other main gun engagement it took practice to be effective.

To the contrary that it would be dangerously time consuming....a tank in a proper fire position only firing a ranging gun at another tank would barely if at all be seen....there are very limited consequences of fire....i.e muzzle blast or noise from a single round of .50 Cal being fired.....compared to what is created by a main gun round. If the ranging gun round missed it would probably not even be noticed by the enemy tank crew...if you have ever actually worked on a tank there are plenty of other noises louder than a machine gun firing all around you....the follow up round from the main gun would for sure be noticed by the enemy tank crew as they were destroyed.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

The M2 HB on the barrel of the Merkava also doubles as a ranging gun I have been told by IDF armour troops.



Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

Thanks, Jason! It never occurred to me that the tank crew probably wouldn't even know they were being engaged by the spotting rifle.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

- Jens_O_Mehner
The M2 HB on the barrel of the Merkava also doubles as a ranging gun I have been told by IDF armour troops.



Jens O.




Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

I finally dug this image up, its the TM diagram of the M8C spotting rifle which mounts on the M40A2, 106mm RR.



Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

As seen on the Ontos?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Spotting Rifles

- MarkHolloway
As seen on the Ontos?


Only mounted on 4 of the 6 106mm RR's mounted on the Ontos. The top two RR's on each bank have the M8C. This is to allow the dismounting of two of the six, and still gives the Ontos ranging abilties for each 'bank' or side of the vehicle.

Technically, 4 of the 6 can be dismounted and have the stand alone capability of operation, but the vehicles BII only includes 2 ground mount tripods.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum