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Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweat M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
. My son, Jeffrey wants to post all the helicopters weve snapped pictures of on "Officers Club". I told him not to expect much of a response because that DG seems to have gone "south" as far as interest in actual aircraft research and discussion. However we will post them there this week I hope.


Hello Jeff,
Maybe your son can post those pictures (and serials) on www.scramble.nl

Regards,
Lesley
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Jeff,

Nice to hear from you again. I already have seen those pictures you took of the interior (You sent them via PM to me while I was overseas). Tank is gutted and looks like someone re-installed the 105D AUX sight. Bunch of graffiti inside from '72 and '73. The one picture you had of the breech area was not close enough to read the gun tube face, and besides the breech block was up and would need to be opened to get all the pertinent data. Also looks like someone ground off the "TRAINING TANK ONLY" bead weld from the front slope.

If you noticed Jim's post, this subject has come alive again. That tank has always bugged me, and now with this new info I really want to check her out personally. IIRC that tank was formerly a 2AD tank and was inherited by 4ID when they re-flagged. Hopefully she'll stay at Hood.

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

I have some more pictures of this tank and after spending some time going through various thumb drives, I found the pictures. The front slope used to have "TRAINING TANK ONLY" written in weld bead across the front slope. You can see the area because it has been ground smooth there. I also have some pictures of the interior as well. I thought this vehicle was unique so I snapped tons of pictures from all angles of the extrerior and quite a few of the inside. If there are any other shots people want to see, let me know and I'll see what I have.
Tomorrow I plan to drive by where the tank last sat and see if its still there. If it is, I will contact the 4th ID museum director and ask persission to go inside the tank. If that is OK'd, I'll make arrangements for Joe D. to come down and climb all over the tank. I also know where all the other M60's on display around the post are as well.

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:00 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Just let me know Jeff,

BTW, Welcome back.

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binder001
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Jeff,

I will be in San Antonio for a professional meeting in early March. Is it hard to get on post and is there any problems with a fat old man going around to take photos? I wanted to stop by and see the 4ID museum (I think that is the one with more TDs and Shermans).

Gary
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

It just dawned on me that during the T95 developmental program.

2 vehicles were built with the M48A2 turret mounting the British X-15, 105mm main gun.

2 additional vehicles were built with the M48A2 turret mounting the T254 (the American lightweight version of the British X-15, 105mm main gun.)

Does anyone know if the British 105mm, X-15 main gun was a smooth bore??

Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Don,

If your referring to the X15E8, no it wasn't. The only smooth bore I heard of with the T95 program was the Hyper-velocity 90mm

X-15E8 and T-254 were rifled, the T-254 being the US version. T-254E2 used a vertical breech design with electric prime whereas the UK X-15E8 was horizontal with percussion cap. T-254E2 was designed to be interchangeable with the X-15E8 Tube. This combo became the M68 used in the M48A5/M60/M1 tanks.

The US had their own 105mm rifled that was a completely different design predating the T254 IIRC. Was used on those weird experimental tanks with oscillating turrets. I think Neil posted a picture of one from Aberdeen.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

- Joe_D
Don,

If your referring to the X15E8, no it wasn't. The only smooth bore I heard of with the T95 program was the Hyper-velocity 90mm

X-15E8 and T-254 were rifled, the T-254 being the US version. T-254E2 used a vertical breech design with electric prime whereas the UK X-15E8 was horizontal with percussion cap. T-254E2 was designed to be interchangeable with the X-15E8 Tube. This combo became the M68 used in the M48A5/M60/M1 tanks.

The US had their own 105mm rifled that was a completely different design predating the T254 IIRC. Was used on those weird experimental tanks with oscillating turrets. I think Neil posted a picture of one from Aberdeen.


I wasn't sure, but there seemed to be a possibly link. The references were from 1955 test data on the T95.

I guess I need to dig into the M60 developmental program, and maybe something will pop up that might help explain the smooth bore 105mm on the M60.

I've seen some data on the Oscillating turret tank program, but flipped thru it on the hunt for T95 stuff.

Thanks for that info.

Don
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

There were also some 105mm guns on some of the heavy tanks of the late '40s before the Oscillating turret vehicles. There was a 105mm gun turret mounted on the M6 heavy that was offered to SHAEF for deployment to Europe in the late stages of the Northwest Europe campaign. I'm sure all were rifled

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Heres a gun comparison chart from the T95 program:



Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Just went through my treasured Hunnicutt,

Tank I was talking about was the T54 and the gun was specific designed with an auto loader in mind. Looks very similar to the first 105mm you have listed, which I can't make out the nomenclature.

Always was intrigued with the T95 concepts, especially the one where they mount the main gun fixed without a recoil mech.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:45 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

- Joe_D
Just went through my treasured Hunnicutt,

Tank I was talking about was the T54 and the gun was specific designed with an auto loader in mind. Looks very similar to the first 105mm you have listed, which I can't make out the nomenclature.

Always was intrigued with the T95 concepts, especially the one where they mount the main gun fixed without a recoil mech.



Heres a close up:



Don
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:12 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Well I have some possibly bad news and good news. First the bad, I couldn't find the M60/smoothbore tank in the motorpool where it had been. I will try and contact the 4ID museum director this week via e-mail and see if she can tell me anything.
The good news, is I found these freshly painted vehicles as well as some helicopters, and other assorted armor that I'm pretty sure is being brought here to be future displays for the 3rd ACR. The museum director has said I can visit the 4ID storage facility whenever I wish so I killed an hour today and checked it out and found the vehicles below. I wrote down what serila numbers I could find and took the pictures with my old digital which I carry around in my truck, (the good camera is for the boys sport events). So what does this panel of experts see here?

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:34 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

Hey Don,

That T140E2 was used in the United Shoe Machinery T54E1 oscillating turret and had an auto loader IAW my Hunnicutt.

What I found interesting was what he said of the T140 series of guns. The T140 was for the Rheem T54 with conventional turret and auto loader and the T140E3 was for the T54E2 turret which was conventional and had no auto loader. So was there a T140E1?

Also, these T54E2 turrets were then assigned to the T95 program. But your document has the E2 gun with the T95, making me wonder how they made that work or if my book has a misprint/error. One of those same turrets shows up later on a M48A2 hull sporting the lightweight version of the M103's 120mm gun (T123E6). It was during the shoot off that decided what weapon to use in the new M60 being developed. Ironically that turret was the basis for the M60A1 turret too.

I really need to get to Knox one day and get the "Facts". Love my "Patton" but I really prefer Army manuals and documents, since they aren't condensed and edited.

My head hurts now.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:24 am
Post subject: Re: Sweet M60 found in Ft Hood Motorpool...

- Joe_D
Hey Don,

That T140E2 was used in the United Shoe Machinery T54E1 oscillating turret and had an auto loader IAW my Hunnicutt.

What I found interesting was what he said of the T140 series of guns. The T140 was for the Rheem T54 with conventional turret and auto loader and the T140E3 was for the T54E2 turret which was conventional and had no auto loader. So was there a T140E1?

Also, these T54E2 turrets were then assigned to the T95 program. But your document has the E2 gun with the T95, making me wonder how they made that work or if my book has a misprint/error. One of those same turrets shows up later on a M48A2 hull sporting the lightweight version of the M103's 120mm gun (T123E6). It was during the shoot off that decided what weapon to use in the new M60 being developed. Ironically that turret was the basis for the M60A1 turret too.

I really need to get to Knox one day and get the "Facts". Love my "Patton" but I really prefer Army manuals and documents, since they aren't condensed and edited.

My head hurts now.


The T95 enigma has given me a whole series of headaches, trying to put some order in what is pure chaos. Especially with the amount of information I have available.

Just drop me a line when you make plans to head this way.

Regards
Don
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