±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 600
Total: 600
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Downloads
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Photo Gallery
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Downloads
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Your Account
45: Home
46: Downloads
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Member Screenshots
53: Community Forums
54: CPGlang
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: CPGlang
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: CPGlang
69: Photo Gallery
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Member Screenshots
82: Community Forums
83: Statistics
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Downloads
88: Photo Gallery
89: Photo Gallery
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Statistics
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Your Account
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: News
126: Your Account
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Statistics
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Member Screenshots
137: CPGlang
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: CPGlang
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Member Screenshots
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Downloads
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Downloads
172: Your Account
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Downloads
179: Home
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: CPGlang
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Home
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Downloads
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Your Account
218: Downloads
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Downloads
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Downloads
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Downloads
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Member Screenshots
258: News
259: Photo Gallery
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: CPGlang
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Photo Gallery
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Your Account
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Photo Gallery
285: Downloads
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Photo Gallery
293: Member Screenshots
294: Member Screenshots
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Photo Gallery
299: Photo Gallery
300: Member Screenshots
301: Your Account
302: Community Forums
303: Downloads
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: CPGlang
307: Community Forums
308: CPGlang
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Your Account
318: Community Forums
319: Your Account
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Statistics
323: Downloads
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Member Screenshots
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: News Archive
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Photo Gallery
341: Downloads
342: Photo Gallery
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Photo Gallery
358: CPGlang
359: Photo Gallery
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: News
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Statistics
374: Photo Gallery
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Downloads
386: Member Screenshots
387: Downloads
388: Photo Gallery
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Statistics
393: Photo Gallery
394: Photo Gallery
395: Home
396: Photo Gallery
397: Photo Gallery
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Member Screenshots
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Member Screenshots
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Your Account
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Your Account
423: Community Forums
424: Downloads
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: CPGlang
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Photo Gallery
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Photo Gallery
452: Home
453: Home
454: Photo Gallery
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Downloads
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Downloads
476: Photo Gallery
477: Downloads
478: Photo Gallery
479: Photo Gallery
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Your Account
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Member Screenshots
487: Photo Gallery
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Community Forums
492: Downloads
493: Photo Gallery
494: Photo Gallery
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Your Account
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Downloads
506: Member Screenshots
507: Member Screenshots
508: Community Forums
509: Home
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Home
514: Community Forums
515: Downloads
516: Photo Gallery
517: Photo Gallery
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Photo Gallery
529: Home
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: News Archive
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Member Screenshots
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Photo Gallery
546: Photo Gallery
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: CPGlang
554: Downloads
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Downloads
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Downloads
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Downloads
571: Your Account
572: Photo Gallery
573: Community Forums
574: Home
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Downloads
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Home
593: Photo Gallery
594: Downloads
595: Photo Gallery
596: Your Account
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:23 pm
Post subject: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

wyborcza.pl/1,75248,92...o_USA.html

Rough translation

The extraordinary story of the tank, which disappeared 20 years ago, immediately after extraction from the Black Nida near Bieleckich Mills. There are many indications that the panther was exported to the United States, where it is to be renovated and run as a great attraction. In Poland, the prosecutor's office investigated the matter, it also took the CBS

This story begins in mid-January 1945, when the Red Army advanced along the direction of Kielce, and its offensive on the Nida tried to stop the German armored units. During these struggles Pz.Kampf.V Tank Ausf. A Panther is stuck in the river near Bieleckich Mills (gm. Morawica). In the 50s Polish People's Army under the orders blasted its turret, but the nearly complete hull remained in place until 16 November 1990. Then, weighing around 30 tons, the wreckage was brought out on behalf of a private company. With helped from the technical security carts with a military unit Bukowiec. It turned out that the wreck is in a surprisingly good condition - it had all-wheel drive, all equipment inside. Experts have noted that it is quite unusual version of the panther, it is possible that a prototype.

The tank on the carriage was transported to Warsaw, then virtually disappeared. Even in 1991 there were some reports that it could get abroad as scrap, and journalists "Words of the People" described that involved the extraction of such operating in Kielce an association, while the army has made the extraction of the exercise.

Surprisingly, late last year began to investigate the matter Tank Central Bureau of Investigation. - Sam, I was surprised because it's so many years. But police said that the case was classified as a theft of cultural property, and it is not barred - anonymous informant tells Gazeta. For closure of this issue Police Chief spokesman did not respond to questions on this matter.

There are many indications that the procedure is carried out after doniesieniu made by Piotr Lewandowski, a lawyer, a private military enthusiast. - For several years trying to interest various authorities in this matter. After all, our country illegally were taken away a very valuable exhibit, and the circumstances in which this occurred, is at least strange - says Lewandowski. He argues that the tank completely excavated illegally on behalf of a private company from Warsaw. Interestingly, this would help, among others positive opinion of experts, the Higher Military School of Automobile, who found that it is worthless scrap. The documents, which arrived Lewandowski, shows that in return promised to provide some exhibits for the Museum. White Eagle in Skarzysko. - But the general conservator had agreed to deportation tank. Nevertheless, the wreck disappeared - emphasizes Lewandowski. Interestingly, after the interventions studied the matter twice in Kielce District Prosecutor. Last time last year. In April, interviewed, among others owners of a company that would handle the extraction of the wreck. - Indeed, the District Prosecutor Kielce-West to pursue a case on the illegal deportation tank, but they were dismissed because the case is przedawni?a - says S?awomir Mielniczuk, a spokesman for District Prosecutor's Office in Kielce.

- After that I made subsequent redemption notice, but this time the group, which probably deals with the wholesale export of such cultural property. Letter was sent to the chief of police, suggesting that the issue addressed by the Central Bureau of Investigation and the national team to fight crime against national heritage. I suspect that this resulted in a visit to CBS in the region Swietokrzyskie - says Lewandowski.

"Kielce" panther, probably around 2000 by Britain came to the United States. He bought it for his collection of Jacques Littlefield, a millionaire and passionate. On the internet you can find videos and photos of the tank and the information that has been redeemed from the Polish owner, and recovered from the Black Nida. With over 2 million dollars had been carefully renovated, reconstructing the tower, and even installed the original engine. Today, this tank is a lot of rides and attractions. - My dream is that once the tank returned to Polish - not hide Lewandowski.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck


On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Smashy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 05, 2010
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.

_________________
Smashy
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Rikard_Hufschmied
- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.


That is something that could happen, depending if Poland is willing to create an example to scare others.

Even if it would cost Poland $100M over 20 years (and in comparison that is not much or a long time for a country), that is much more then the foundation is able to spend in time or money

And Poland is not the only country with such problems, they could be joined by some other countries to put up a statement

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hi,

At least based on the facts here, Poland is unlikely to prevail if they do take this to court. I suspect that "the officials were corrupt and not allowed to do that" won't hold a lot of water, as long as the buyers can demonstrate good faith efforts to obtain clear title. Nations are expected to police their own bureaucracy, for the most part.

Living here on the border of Mexico, we've seen a lot of transactions involving corrupt Mexican officials, and the response is usually a matter of national law. The Mexicans haven't had much luck in overturning such transactions once it crosses the international border, unless an American law was also broken in the process.

Very expensive, and very long.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:46 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle.

General consensus is that the trail takes place where de delict has occured, not where the accused or the goods in question are. In this case that would be Poland, and that makes it an entire other game to play.

At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project

Again not agree, the buyer has to prove he had no knowledge of the "history" of the goods. As there aren't many Panthers on the market its al going to depend on the judge.

However, as I conclude from the artikel its about a quest from a singel individual and far from a trail. I even think there already has been a trail in Poland about this case, maybe Rafal can shed some light on this.

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

If it does get dirty, I'm sure that the HMVF could offer them a tank or two for their museums.
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:20 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

To cut this topic.

Nobody believe that the Panther come back to Poland.

In Poland the police shat down the investigation because flow of time.

In this case is only evolved one person Mr Lewandowski (none museum, foundation, institution). Is a little chance that this case get to court in USA and I think none chance that Foundation can loss the Panther or must paid for it.

There would be a chance if that would be a work of art which was lost during WWII or stolen in Poland. But we talk about wreck of tank which is now worth something only because Mr. Littlefield took a great effort to renovate it.

No institution in Poland will go to court because the cost of it are to expensive and the resolute is doubly. Even if in some impossible way the court say that the tank must go back to Poland, there won’t be no materials to give the money back that Mr Littlefield pumped it the wreck during renovation process.


Be honest we can get back the Polish TKS which is in Kubinka (Russia) so in what way we can get back something that was a wreck of a German tank.

In Poland are still two panther tanks hulls and 50% of people interested in history in Poland say that is good that the panther went to USA because in here it wouldn't be restored and still rusting on open air.


I suggest to close the topic
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum