±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 758
Total: 758
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Downloads
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Downloads
28: Photo Gallery
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Statistics
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Member Screenshots
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Statistics
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Downloads
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Photo Gallery
54: Photo Gallery
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Downloads
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Your Account
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: CPGlang
88: Photo Gallery
89: Photo Gallery
90: Community Forums
91: Downloads
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Your Account
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Photo Gallery
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Downloads
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: CPGlang
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Photo Gallery
158: Your Account
159: Home
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Home
164: News Archive
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: CPGlang
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Member Screenshots
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Downloads
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Home
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Downloads
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Photo Gallery
232: Your Account
233: Community Forums
234: CPGlang
235: CPGlang
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: CPGlang
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Home
245: Downloads
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Downloads
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: CPGlang
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Downloads
291: CPGlang
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Your Account
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Member Screenshots
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Your Account
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Downloads
320: Community Forums
321: Search
322: Photo Gallery
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: Photo Gallery
341: Home
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Member Screenshots
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: CPGlang
350: Photo Gallery
351: Home
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Downloads
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Statistics
385: Home
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Your Account
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Photo Gallery
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Home
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Home
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: CPGlang
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Home
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Downloads
439: Photo Gallery
440: Home
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Your Account
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Home
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Your Account
476: Your Account
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Home
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Tell a Friend
491: Community Forums
492: Downloads
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Your Account
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Home
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: Photo Gallery
523: Community Forums
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Member Screenshots
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Home
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Home
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Home
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Downloads
551: Community Forums
552: Statistics
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Photo Gallery
570: Home
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Home
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Your Account
586: Home
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: CPGlang
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Photo Gallery
595: Home
596: Home
597: Community Forums
598: News Archive
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Downloads
603: Community Forums
604: Your Account
605: Community Forums
606: Downloads
607: Photo Gallery
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Downloads
621: Community Forums
622: News Archive
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Photo Gallery
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Home
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Home
632: Home
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Downloads
637: News Archive
638: Community Forums
639: Photo Gallery
640: Member Screenshots
641: Community Forums
642: News
643: Member Screenshots
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Home
653: Community Forums
654: Home
655: Photo Gallery
656: Photo Gallery
657: Photo Gallery
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Photo Gallery
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Photo Gallery
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: News Archive
674: Community Forums
675: Home
676: Member Screenshots
677: Home
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Photo Gallery
682: Photo Gallery
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Your Account
686: Photo Gallery
687: Home
688: Community Forums
689: CPGlang
690: Your Account
691: Community Forums
692: Photo Gallery
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Home
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Community Forums
703: Downloads
704: Home
705: Photo Gallery
706: Community Forums
707: Photo Gallery
708: Community Forums
709: Home
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Statistics
713: Photo Gallery
714: Community Forums
715: Photo Gallery
716: Home
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Home
720: Supporters
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Your Account
727: CPGlang
728: Community Forums
729: Home
730: Photo Gallery
731: Statistics
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Home
736: Photo Gallery
737: Your Account
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Member Screenshots
744: Photo Gallery
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Home
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Home
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Home
754: Community Forums
755: Community Forums
756: Downloads
757: Photo Gallery
758: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm
Post subject: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Question for former Army museum employees & volunteers: in your experience, is there a distinction between artifacts that are useful for soldier training and those of historical value? I dont see the distinction, particularly if you are training soldiers on the history of their branch...

But that's the baby the Senate Armed Services Committee is asking the Army to try to divide for the Armor/Ordnance/ADA collections. That being said, the intent of the language below is to enable the "historical" artifacts to be put on public display at privately-funded museums (vs the "training" artifacts that will be stored for soldier training at facilities paid for with public funds). Unfortunately, the committee is opposed to using public funds to enable public access.

Maybe (hopefully?) the Army will use this distinction to recreate what existed at Fort Knox with the Patton Museum vs Richardson Motor Pool? Who knows...

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/...srpt26.pdf

"Storage of Army artifacts
The fiscal year 2011 budget request for the Department of the Army recommended funding in Military Construction, Army, for three climate controlled storage buildings at Forts Benning, Lee, and Sill. These facilities were intended to support movement of Army macro-artifacts which were following Training and Doctrine Command schools re-locating as part of the Base Closure and Realignment 2005 process. Although the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization act for Fiscal Year 2011 (Public Law 111–383) did not authorize these projects, the committee supports the requirement to protect and preserve these historical collections.

"The committee has encouraged the Army to investigate all options for facility solutions. The committee encourages the Army to pursue the solutions that best address the priorities the Army has identified and that are the most fiscally prudent from a life cycle standpoint. Therefore, the committee directs the Army to complete its review of all options under consideration and provide a report to the committee not later than September 30, 2011, on its preferred solution set. The report shall contain, at a minimum, the following:
1. The Army’s requirements and priorities with respect to storing these artifacts;
2. Identification of various solution sets and a business case analysis for each course of action, as well as identifying any legal or regulatory barriers for the different options;
3. Estimates for the life cycle cost to the government for each option;
4. The expected cost and implications of not providing appropriate storage locations for the artifacts;
5. The Army’s recommendation for the appropriate option at each installation;
6. Any necessary legislative changes necessary to dispose of any artifacts that are not deemed to be of national historic significance; and
7. Delineation and listing of all artifacts to be stored, with special emphasis on those that are to be used for training and in what context, and those that merely have historical value as an artifact.

"With respect to the Army’s preferred option for each of the three installations, the committee notes that it does not and will not support the use of any appropriated funds being used to build or support a public museum."
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

just a note : it is good to read this, because it shows that the Senate is preoccupated by the fate of these historical artifacts.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Maybe we should set up an AFVNDG warehouse in the US to take any 'spare' vehicles that the Army doesn't want...

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Don, Bob, Garry,
Any comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

My fear is that anything supplied to a private museum will end up at a 'Museum' like the VMMV or the one in Florida that bought the collection from Hubbard OH.

Yes there are some good collections but most are the projects of individuals and subject to the vagries of life. Good intentions run up against tough budgets, wills and probate, divorce and even fraud. Maybe I am glad the Czech T35 went home instead of staying at the Ordinance Museum

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Bob,
The report seems (or at least tries) to distinguish amongst three different types of artifacts:
1) Those "not deemed to be of national historic significance" - these items could well be given away to various museums like you said.
2) Those of "national historic significance" - these items would remain Army property, but would be displayed at co-located (or nearby) museums - akin to the old Patton Museum, and to a lesser degree the Ordnance Museum.
3) Those "to be used for training" - these items would be stored at publicly-funded storage facility, for use by soldiers.

I suspect the artifacts falling under #1 will be relatively few - or at least that's what I can only hope the Army will say.

My primary curiousity/concern regards #2 & #3 - I dont see the distinction.

For those that worked & volunteered at the old museums, I am curious if you saw any practical distinction between artifacts that were used to train soldiers and "historical" artifacts displayed merely for public benefit. Seems to me soldiers are/were trained on the same historical items... But I could be wrong...

Neil

I believe the intent would still be to have a privately funded "museum" co-located (or nearby) the publicly-funded
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

My bet is when it's done and over with, all of the artifacts will be left out in the rain.

There is NO difference between #2 and #3.

The last time I was at the Ft Bliss museum, a Capt and a 1st Sgt came by. They were from a NG Air Defense unit. They were going to bring they unit by for a look at the Air Defense items still at the museum. Training is walking around a item and looking at it. Hopefully someone knows some history about it and can tell the troops. Next day, a family stops by and walks around the same item. Both the troops and the family do the same thing. They look and learn.

I somehow get the feeling that some one is thinking the troops get on or in an item and do something with it.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Neil

The only thing I can offer is the personal view point that the 'training tool' excuse has been far over-used by Army Officials.

A few soldiers going thru the museum once a month is not viable training experience but an excuse for a day away from the normal routine.

Is there any sort of training plan? (NO!)
"Task, Conditions, & Standards" (NO!)
Pre or post training testing ? (NO!)

These are (or at least were) minimum requirements for a basic training session.

Oh yeah, a bunch of young "LTs" climbing on old tanks after having their 'threat' class was always fun to babysit. They tended to do more harm to subject vehicles than any sort of beneficial training value. This is why we colocated all the Soviet/Russian vehicles together. Those were realistically the only vehicles that gave them any sort of training value.

The greatest casualty to this whole episode? The general public, veterans, and their families. And then there is the volunteers.

Volunteers spend (or have spent) Thousands of man hours to preserve or restore vehicles (utilizing private &/or personal funds) for public display & exhibitions that draw thousands of interested veterans, families, and enthusists.

The greatest success of the Ft Knox Armor Museum (ie old Patton Museum), was the ability of seeing, touching, smelling, and hearing Armor History. That is now gone for the most part and the ability of experiencing history in such a manner is now only possible through private collection museums.

a few items to consider....
What is Historical property? technically anything is....(no clear answer there!)

'Publically Funded Storage Facility" is a government built garage. A building that houses equipment. (There seems to be no interest in preservation or historical presentation.)

Sadly, the future seems to be bleak for any sort of "World Class Armor Museum" BRAC 05 destroyed an institution its history. Its too late to get any of that back, and there is no interest or funding for a future institution. THAT is the crime of this whole episode.

Of course this is merely my personal opinion.... Sorry for the ranting, I'll shut up now...

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Okay now that I vented

I can see someone deciding that anything from the late cold war is to be kept as a 'training aid' "So we can show the troops the weak spots, strengths, how to defend against it, etc". Fiberglass models would be about as useful (and a whole lot cheaper to maintain) if you just want to show the troops what a Panther or a Tiger looked like and how it compared to a Sherman or Stuart. And do Ordnance troops today even need to know that? They are only interested in recovering repairing and maintaining tanks. It took over 10 years for the Recovery Branch of the Ordnance school to move the Elefant one mile! (And eventually it was accomplished in the manner I suggested nine years ago - You embarrass the leaders - I suggested a bar bet with the senior NCOs, it was done by the Base Commander in a staff meeting to the OIC of the recovery Branch)

Another example - I used to make a point to groups about how bad the interleaved roadwheels of the Panther were for maintenance. A training aid set up with interleaved wheels that you could actually have trainees swap out the inside center wheel will make as much impression as showing them and telling them how unmaintanable they were compared to the spaced wheels of a T-34 or T-72 or a VVSS unit of a Sherman.

The older vehicles were more of professional interest to the designers and engineers who were developing the next generation by looking at how previous developers solved problems. But those folks aren't at Ft Lee or Benning so what training purpose do the vehicles serve there?

Their purpose is in building esprit, keeping the public enthused, having trophies to show off. And that isn't done by locking them away in a training area where only professionals who have already made a commitment can see them. They serve a major purpose by being down the center of the main road into the base where a 9 year old can be driven by them and think WOW and be in a place where a grandfather can bring his grand children and tell them 'that is what I did in the great war' Or where a group of Cub Scouts can walk around them and look at the gouges where rounds bounced off while a docent tells the story of a last ditch fruitless defense

A few will be deemed 'of national historic significance' (and probably for all the wrong reasons) Things like Patton's command truck, Cobra King (hopefully) Some M1 Combat car that they have a picture of Patton or Rose or someone else famous in Maybe some of the one of a kinds from the 20s and 30s. A few Shermans, Maybe some M-48s painted up like they were in Vietnam. You know as well as I do they have very few records on the vehicles at Aberdeen to be able to tell much about specific vehicles and what their 'significance is' The Tiger I (if it ever comes back) and the JagdTiger that we have photographic evidence of when and where it was captured may be some of the best documented. Will they keep the two Ordnance Museum Panthers side by side so someone can show the improvements made between early and late production? I doubt it.

Then there will be a lot put on the block for units or bases to request as monuments. Then they will start accepting requests from museums, probably based on who knows which Senator. Some will hopefully be well cared for and made available for some folks to see. Others will end up as trophies or playtoys for fatcats to show off to their friends and pat themselves on the back about how they are 'saving history'

The intellectual midgets that we have making these decisions in DC only think of what they can do to embarrass members of the other party and blame the previous administration for all the problems They want a 'feel good' sound bite that they will forget before the next reporter talks to them

I guess I just vented again

In actuality the 'training tool' excuse has always just been politically correct lip service used to justify the keeping of trophies. Everyone knew why they were being kept, they were being kept to show off to family and friends, Show the Taxpayer what their sacrifices (back in the big war) were for and be a center of pride for the organization. Well someone is now enforcing 'the letter of the law'. This is the 21st century version of the WWII and Korean war scrap drives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Interesting feedback. I suppose my hope is that the Army will say that most (if not almost all) artifacts have national historic value, but are not needed for direct soldier training per see... Setting them up for display at museums co-located at Benning, Lee and Sill.

My fear is that the collections will end up slit between the privately-funded museum and the publicly-funded storage facilities - with the latter (ironically) not accessible by the public.

BTW, I am told there is one particular well-known Senator that is firmly opposed to using public funds for public access (ie museums). The same Senator that rails against pork barrel spending on a regular basis...
Back to top
View user's profile
ShermanWasRight
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2009
Posts: 165
Location: Central Ohio/Northern Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I find the disdain for private museums here interesting, as it's quite the opposite of what I've seen among warbird enthusiasts-they love the "free market approach."

Of course, I agree with the opinion here; "preserving" history in someone's garage/hangar that the public only sees 5 days a year is next to worthless. Unfortunately I don't really know that I can offer any real solutions to the problem-it's hard even for me as someone who loves history to think that these vehicles could be used for training modern soldiers in any real fashion.

^^^^the storage facilites being off limits for "security reasons," of course, like the numerous gateguards at airbases across the country Rolling Eyes . The freaking Iranian planespotters have better access to their air force than I do, based on what I see on airliners.net. If I asked the USAF for permission to take pictures of their birds at, say, Rickenbacker, the chances are good they'd tell me about all the security/OPSEC risks before they then said no.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Keep in mind that you can go to an airshow once (or a few times) a year to see privately restored warbirds, and you can also go almost any day a year to an aviation museum.

That balance has been upset for the AFV world in the US. You can still go to the open houses to see privately restored vehicles, but the two largest AFV museum collections are now in storage.

It would be akin to having the Air & Space Museum and USAF Museum collections in storage at the same time due to impending - and as yet uncertain and unfunded - moves.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

And keep in mind that while the country groans under crushing debt and the DoD creaks under indecipherable accounting practices, we're "saving money" by moving an entire branch (or two) of the army at considerable expense, yet "closing" nothing under BRAC in the move. To say nothing of leaving behind an essentially empty and amortized museum that was well suited to it's task while it's key displays are left to rot out of public view for who-knows-how long?

A new museum (if, in fact, one is ever started, let alone completed) will cost many millions. I predict we will not see such a facility for at least ten years...and I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

I got to quit commenting, this is getting my elevated blood pressure even higher !! (Wheres my B.P. pills !!)

Oh well, such is life
Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Dontos
....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

Don


The ultimate irony will be when they starting sending people TDY from Benning to Knox to conduct training on facilities that Benning doesn't have.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum