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Weapons Cache in Iraq...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:59 pm
Post subject: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

[img][/img]
I was told this is very common of the type of weapons caches found in Iraq. 1/11th ACR soldiers found this one. Once found, they were guarded until disposed of by EOD or Engineers after being inventoried. Inventory was done not just for shear number accountability, but to see who was supplying the weapons and/or where they came from. I was shown numerous pictures of all sorts of caches sites found, they're everywhere.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:57 am
Post subject: Re: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

Hi Folks!

That is the price we are paying today for not putting a larger number of troops and units in there at the start. There should have been a list of ammo dumps with units tasked to find them and secure them so no one could haul anything away for use later. Next problem should have been covering the borders and try to prevent anyone from slipping more items and people into the area.

The amount of ammo I have heard that EOD units have destoryed already is unreal.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

The "civilians" sitting on the dirt mound beside the Hummer are actually "zip-tied" and are awaiting questioning. They lived on the property where the cache was found. I don't know the results of the questioning.

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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:52 am
Post subject: Re: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

Hi all,

Roy, the problem with your premise is that Saddam had emptied his armories and bunkers well before we invaded. Most of the enormous amount of munitions on the ground were dispersed and hidden before we got there. Even with our entire Army, we wouldn't have had enough people to secure every weapons dump and cache in Iraq, even if we had known where all of them were.

Our Civil Affairs teams were regularly directed to ammo dumps and caches in the desert, by locals. Some of these were truly huge, covering many acres with buried stashes of shells and ammunition. They would do a preliminary assessment, and notify the EOD guys. There was no way to secure the sites, so they would just leave and hope that everything would stay where it was. Even at guarded sites, we often discovered 'back entrances' with folks stealing anything they could carry. Most of them wanted it for the scrap metal, but it's not hard to imagine that some of them ended up being used against us.

On top of the larger dumps, there are literally tens of thousands of smaller backyard-type caches. Often the residents don't want them, and will point them out as soon as they think they safely can. Some of the caches do belong to terrorists, though.

In some ways, the poor storage conditions work in our favor. RPG propellant and warheads don't work well after a year or more buried in a back yard. As time goes on, the lack of maintenance and controlled storage are degrading any MANPADS still floating around out there, making our fliers safer. Unfortunately, most sorts of artillery shells seem to handle the storage conditions pretty well.

Oh, and EOD is destroying literally tons of stuff out of those dumps every day. They have a lot of guys working it, and still estimated years of 7-day-a-week work to destroy even what we already know about.

C
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:15 am
Post subject: Re: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

C,
Sounds like you are still on duty, in the reserves, or just got out. There ARE huge amounts of munitions in caches everywhere. I was shown more pictures of cache sites than you can imagine. I know a fellow with literaly, a thousand or so pictures of various caches sites, sites being blown, raids, etc... amazing stuff.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Weapons Cache in Iraq...

Hi Chuck! Hi Folks!

"Saddam had emptied his armories and bunkers well before we invaded."

If anyone at Cen-Com G2 had been paying attention, a lot of that action would have been tracked and we would have some idea where the larger caches were at.

"Most of the enormous amount of munitions on the ground were dispersed and hidden before we got there."

I have read a number of articles that have reported units passing through massive ammo bunker complexs packed with ammo. The units didn't have the mission of guarding those complexes until some else could replace them. Days and weeks later when those dumps where check again, a lot of the munitions were gone.

"Even with our entire Army, we wouldn't have had enough people to secure every weapons dump and cache in Iraq, even if we had known where all of them were."

That may well be, but I feel that more divisions would have been able to secure the ones the lead units found and the ones we did know about.

"Our Civil Affairs teams were regularly directed to ammo dumps and caches in the desert, by locals. Some of these were truly huge, covering many acres with buried stashes of shells and ammunition. They would do a preliminary assessment, and notify the EOD guys. There was no way to secure the sites, so they would just leave and hope that everything would stay where it was."

I think that supports my claim. It doesn't do the locals or our follow on troops any good if there are not enough units in theater to secure the ones we learn about.

"Even at guarded sites, we often discovered 'back entrances' with folks stealing anything they could carry. Most of them wanted it for the scrap metal, but it's not hard to imagine that some of them ended up being used against us."

Sounds like a clear case of not enough troops or units.

"RPG propellant and warheads don't work well after a year or more buried in a back yard. Unfortunately, most sorts of artillery shells seem to handle the storage conditions pretty well."

The artillery shell's metal case does a very good job of preventing the elements inside them from out gassing. They can last for a very long time.

"EOD is destroying literally tons of stuff out of those dumps every day. They have a lot of guys working it, and still estimated years of 7-day-a-week work to destroy even what we already know about."

Sounds like we need more troops. During Vietnam, a lot of troopers (that is non-EOD MOS types) were trained to blow things up. I get the impressing that only EOD troops are doing all the work. If the finding units can dig things up, lay they out for inventory and photos, then they can also do some of the smaller demolition work. During my time, 11Bs (infantry) and 11Ds (scouts) both had basic demo training.

If tankers and artillery men can be trained to conduct infantry/swat type house to house searchs then why not train other MOS's in basic demolition.

I just don't buy the line that "we" didn't know.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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