±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 634
Total: 634
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Photo Gallery
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Home
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Statistics
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Photo Gallery
51: Downloads
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: Member Screenshots
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Downloads
68: Home
69: Your Account
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Your Account
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: News
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Photo Gallery
90: Home
91: Photo Gallery
92: Photo Gallery
93: Downloads
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Your Account
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Downloads
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Downloads
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Member Screenshots
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Home
145: Photo Gallery
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Member Screenshots
149: Community Forums
150: News
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Downloads
159: Community Forums
160: Your Account
161: Member Screenshots
162: Downloads
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Downloads
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Downloads
173: Search
174: Statistics
175: Home
176: Home
177: Downloads
178: Photo Gallery
179: Your Account
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Photo Gallery
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: CPGlang
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Downloads
193: Home
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Home
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: CPGlang
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Member Screenshots
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Photo Gallery
239: Your Account
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: CPGlang
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Home
254: Photo Gallery
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Downloads
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Downloads
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Photo Gallery
286: Photo Gallery
287: Photo Gallery
288: Photo Gallery
289: News
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: CPGlang
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Downloads
304: Downloads
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Home
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Photo Gallery
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Downloads
328: CPGlang
329: Photo Gallery
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Downloads
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Photo Gallery
375: Photo Gallery
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Photo Gallery
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Member Screenshots
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Home
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Downloads
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Downloads
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Your Account
431: Your Account
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: CPGlang
435: Home
436: Member Screenshots
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Downloads
446: Home
447: CPGlang
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Photo Gallery
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: CPGlang
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Home
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Downloads
473: Home
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Home
499: Community Forums
500: Downloads
501: Your Account
502: Member Screenshots
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Statistics
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Your Account
520: Home
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: CPGlang
527: Community Forums
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: CPGlang
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Community Forums
545: Member Screenshots
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Downloads
549: Photo Gallery
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Your Account
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Downloads
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Home
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Your Account
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Downloads
587: Community Forums
588: Downloads
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Home
594: Statistics
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Home
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Statistics
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Downloads
615: Downloads
616: Photo Gallery
617: Photo Gallery
618: Home
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Photo Gallery
630: Community Forums
631: Photo Gallery
632: Community Forums
633: Home
634: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- Skeet

This same vet used to talk about the German 88's. A lot of what he spoke about seemed to indicate they could have been 88's. But a lot of what he said made me wonder how (why?) the German's could be using 88's like that, i.e. indirect fire into camps/parks on reverse slopes. I posted that question a while back, and the consenus was that lot's of WWII vets from the ETO referred to all German artillery as 88's.


In noticed that the German combat diaries I've seen all indicate that the 88 was frequently used in the indirect fire role. I recall specifically that this was so in North Africa in particular. So it's possible for indirect fire to have come from 88's. That said, I agree that Allied GI's had a tendency to call any incoming "88 fire".

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F


I don't know of any 76mm gun Shermans being issued to British units (Like the GAA engined M4A3 the U.S. tended to keep the 76mm Shermans for themselves, but 76mm gunned M4A2s were sent to the Soviets)


Yeah those miserly yanks only sold us 1,330 M4A1 w/76mm aka Sherman IIA and an unknown number of M4A3 w/76mm aka Sherman IVA. I beleive they went mostly to Italy. My units regimental history speaks of receiving them as replacements for the 75s until practically the whole regiment was 76mm equipped.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

Oddly enough you dont see very many pictures at all (at least that I have seen) of British Sherman 76s... Lots of 75s & Fireflies, but I cant remember any pictures of 76s in British colors...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Al_Bowie
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:03 pm
Post subject: Distorted Facts

I love the wonderful thoughtless generalisations that such threads dredge up.
Particularly the one about a Panther being worth Four or Five Shermans. This gross generalisation is so wrong in the context of any rational discussion as to be laughable.
Consider this:
If those figures were true then the amount of Shermans deployed to the NWE theatre must have been greater than the actual number. Whilst a Panther in Defence (And I stress Defence - usually ambush) could take a number of Shermans to destoy it the truth also holds true for the Sherman as the battles at the closing of the Falaise pocket indicate and the early Cobra battles where the odds were reversed with up to 12 panthers being KO'd by A troop of Shermans in Defensive position.
Anyone who studies warfare will understand that the defender on prepared ground of his choosing holds all the trumps. The oncoming enemy may lose two or three tanks before even locating his assailant (as Michael Wittman found to his peril). This does not make it a better AFV by any stretch of the imagination. The other part to this is that the five vehicles lost whilst "stalking" the assailant may not all be attributed to the Assailant but its infantry screen or mutually supporting AT or AFV.
THe Panther was a mechanical basket case and was extremely unreliable. The Sherman on the other hand just kept going as wass evidenced in the Normandy breakouts by both US and Brit/Cwealth/Polish forces. The Brits were clocking up huge distances of road march which is extremely taxing on an armoured vehicle and still managed to keep it up. The much vaunted Panther and Tiger would have suffered up to 80% mechanical loss if they attempted the same thing.
The Sherman was an excellent product for the time and like the equally excellent T34 grew to meet the threat. The HVAP 76 mm Shermans with HVAP were a pretty good match for the Panther and even Tiger an could engage these at good battle ranges.
The ability to produce the Sherman easily and in Huge numbers was a very decisive factor and if you did an analysis based on cost effectiveness I know that the Panther would not win.

The other factor overlooked in most of these arguments is the quality of the German Tank crews who had vast experience at both offensive and defensive operations by the time Normandy occured. Most of the US and Brit Formations were rank amatueurs at this in comparison. The integrated all arms philoshphy of the Germans also added to this.

With the exception of the T34 no other ww2 vehicle has had such a career or was so adaptable as to still be going with such success at the end of the War. If the Germans had abandoned the Panther and tiger and concentrated on upgrading the Pz IV family then the numbers they would have had avail and the reliability these proven designs had would have offered more vehicles and some of the results of history may have varied.

Logistics is the lynch pin of any camapign and the ability to support one major type of tank lowers the logisic burden thereby allow your logisic chain to function at its max efficiency. Diluting your logistics across a diverse range of vehicle types reduces your logistic efficiency severly hampering your ability to conduct mobile operations.

The Sherman is a much maligned and denigrated vehicle but to misquote a cartoon of the time "It got their the fastest with the mostest" and did the job asked of it. If some decisions such as arming a percentage of Shermans with the 17pdr in both US and Brit service had been taken earlier along with the introduction of the 76 armed HVSS shermans then it would have had a lot more success but hindsight is onl avail after the fact.

Cheers
Al Bowie
Dedicated Shermaholic
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Distorted Facts

- Al_Bowie
I love the wonderful thoughtless generalisations that such threads dredge up.
Particularly the one about a Panther being worth Four or Five Shermans. This gross generalisation is so wrong in the context of any rational discussion as to be laughable.
Consider this:
If those figures were true then the amount of Shermans deployed to the NWE theatre must have been greater than the actual number. Whilst a Panther in Defence (And I stress Defence - usually ambush) could take a number of Shermans to destoy it the truth also holds true for the Sherman as the battles at the closing of the Falaise pocket indicate and the early Cobra battles where the odds were reversed with up to 12 panthers being KO'd by A troop of Shermans in Defensive position.
Anyone who studies warfare will understand that the defender on prepared ground of his choosing holds all the trumps. The oncoming enemy may lose two or three tanks before even locating his assailant (as Michael Wittman found to his peril). This does not make it a better AFV by any stretch of the imagination. The other part to this is that the five vehicles lost whilst "stalking" the assailant may not all be attributed to the Assailant but its infantry screen or mutually supporting AT or AFV.


I'll admit a bit more thorough research is needed into WWII kill ratios. However, even if the generalization/anecdote its true (which I havent seen any contest with actual data), its likely not the case that there would have had to have been more Shermans than there were. It simply would mean that of Sherman vs Panther/Tiger engagements, that was the kill ratio, keeping in mind that such engagements would be a subset of all engagements that took place. I'm sure there were plenty of Panthers & Tigers that were not destroyed by Shermans, or even tanks. Therefore they dont contribute to the kill ratio. Similarly, not all Shermans faced Panthers & Tigers, so any number of Shermans would not contribute to the kill ratio either...

If someone could point me in the direction of any sort of accumulation of WWII tank kill ratio data I'd appreciate it.


THe Panther was a mechanical basket case and was extremely unreliable. The Sherman on the other hand just kept going as wass evidenced in the Normandy breakouts by both US and Brit/Cwealth/Polish forces. The Brits were clocking up huge distances of road march which is extremely taxing on an armoured vehicle and still managed to keep it up. The much vaunted Panther and Tiger would have suffered up to 80% mechanical loss if they attempted the same thing.


Granted, although I'd probably only describe the initial Panthers as true "basketcases." Keep in mind the Panther was good enough to have been kept in use by the French army until the early 1950s; and were also prized by Soviet crews, so much that they impressed Germany personnel to keep them going...


The Sherman was an excellent product for the time and like the equally excellent T34 grew to meet the threat. The HVAP 76 mm Shermans with HVAP were a pretty good match for the Panther and even Tiger an could engage these at good battle ranges.


While I think the Sherman was a great & venerable tank, I wouldnt argue it grew as much as the T-34, at least during WWII. The Soviets upgraded the T-34 with the 85mm gun during the war, while it took the French and Israelis to upgrade the Sherman with similar weapons post-war...


The ability to produce the Sherman easily and in Huge numbers was a very decisive factor and if you did an analysis based on cost effectiveness I know that the Panther would not win.


I wouldnt argue that the US should have producted Panthers instead of Shermans, but that a cost-effective heavier tank could have been fielded (likely by Normandy if they acted quickly enough & with foresight) as a complement to Sherman and would have been a good use of "limited" shipping.


With the exception of the T34 no other ww2 vehicle has had such a career or was so adaptable as to still be going with such success at the end of the War. If the Germans had abandoned the Panther and tiger and concentrated on upgrading the Pz IV family then the numbers they would have had avail and the reliability these proven designs had would have offered more vehicles and some of the results of history may have varied.


Part of the success & adaptability of the T-34 and Sherman is due to the fact that the US & USSR won WWII, leading to several generations of improvements afterwards. If the Germans had won (thank god not!), I have no doubt we would have seen 88mm armed Panthers and quite possibly even eventually 105mm armed Panthers in the postwar years. I'm not so sure (especially taking the French experience) that the Tiger or Tiger II would have had the same longevity...


The Sherman is a much maligned and denigrated vehicle but to misquote a cartoon of the time "It got their the fastest with the mostest" and did the job asked of it. If some decisions such as arming a percentage of Shermans with the 17pdr in both US and Brit service had been taken earlier along with the introduction of the 76 armed HVSS shermans then it would have had a lot more success but hindsight is onl avail after the fact.


Well that at least I agree with!

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

I don't have data at hand but I'm not sure there was much difference between the 85mm in the T34 and the 76mm in the Sherman. Both were moderate upgrades from the original gun but neither was the very high velocity gun that the 17pdr or 75L70 of the Panther were. I'm not sure the French post war experience with the Panther proves or disproves the tanks reliability. It wasa peacetime army with peacetime priorities. I doubt they were run hard at all.

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:20 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

- bsmart
I don't have data at hand but I'm not sure there was much difference between the 85mm in the T34 and the 76mm in the Sherman. Both were moderate upgrades from the original gun but neither was the very high velocity gun that the 17pdr or 75L70 of the Panther were.


I stand corrected, it appears the 76mm HVAP had somewhat to much better penetration than the Soviet 85mm gun.

Tony Williams gave the following values on another board for penetration at 1,000 yards, striking at 30 degrees from the optimum:
forum.axishistory.com/...41edd627bf

76mm: 89mm (134mm with HVAP ammo)
17 pdr: 118mm (170mm with APDS ammo)
85mm: 84mm

The following also gives penetration values for the Sherman 76 & T-34/85 against the Tiger I:
www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

Neil


Last edited by Neil_Baumgardner on Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- Neil_Baumgardner
Oddly enough you dont see very many pictures at all (at least that I have seen) of British Sherman 76s... Lots of 75s & Fireflies, but I cant remember any pictures of 76s in British colors...

Neil


Just a quick google...




_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted Facts

Jim, thanks. For whatever reason, I dont remember seeing any pics of British Sherman 76s before... Were there any British Easy Eights?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- Neil_Baumgardner
Jim, thanks. For whatever reason, I dont remember seeing any pics of British Sherman 76s before...

Neil


I think there must have been quite a few in Italy - strangely enough not many fireflies... must have been because of the 76mm shermans.



I hadn't realised that the british used Chaffee's during the war till I was going through the regimental photo albums once and spotted that the 9th Lancers had them in the recce troop during early 1945.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:28 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- JimWeb
- Neil_Baumgardner
Jim, thanks. For whatever reason, I dont remember seeing any pics of British Sherman 76s before...

Neil


I think there must have been quite a few in Italy - strangely enough not many fireflies... must have been because of the 76mm shermans.


See - even the British thought the 76mm Sherman was equivalent to a Firefly!! Laughing Laughing Laughing

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Al_Bowie
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:27 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

British use of the 76 Sherman.
The British were supplied with a great number of 76 M4A1 VVSS Shermans but mainly used them in Italy. They were used by 2 RTR and the South African 6 AD there. One of the Shots above is a C Sqn 2 RTR vehicle. Interestingly the Brits put a Firefly in each troop of 2 RTR and had a 4 veh tp consisting of 2 76 and 2 Fireflies by wars end. The Brits decided not to employ the 76 Sherman in NWE and passed the vehicles to the Polish who used them in Holland / Germany. They also retained their Fireflies in each tp.
There is anecdotal evidence to indicate that Guards AD got some 76's by wars end.
The Brits were going to acquire the M4A2 76 HVSS and got about 9 of these for trials by wars end. This is the variant the Canadians settled on post war although they took A3's to Korea from US stock to ease the logistical burden.
The only other HVSS vehicle the Brits got was the M4 105 in very ltd numbers in Italy (most went to the Poles).

BTW the point I made about numbers does not indicate that the Panther killed 5 shermans for itself being killed. these would have been killed by a variety of threats such as infantry AT, AT and mutually supporting tanks. I notice you completely overlook the fact that the Panthers were fighting in sited defence giving them a three to one theoretical advantage to start with. If you analyse the Normandy / Falaise and cobra period battles where the Germans were forced to counterattack against vehicles in defensive position the ratios are about 3 to one in favourr of the Sherman highlighting the fact that it is the situation more than the vehicle that accts for the discrepency.

My comments regarding the longevity if you re read them are WW2 related and NOT post war although the Sherman did continue for a long period post war.
THe French used the Panthers ONLY until the US MAP could provide significant amounts of 76 Shermans and a ltd amount of Pershings. If you can get hold of the Shrivenam Report on the Panther from the ones the Brits trialled you will see its reputation far exceeds its capabilities and the Late Panther was as equal a basket case reliability wise as the early ones. Its breakdown rate was lower but it was still extremely high. The only thing the Brits liked about the Panther was the Gun and Optics. The French liked the Gun also and developed it post war. The guns in the M50 and M51 Israeli Shermans are direct descendants of the Panthers excellent 75.
Cheers
Al
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- bsmart
I'm not sure the French post war experience with the Panther proves or disproves the tanks reliability. It wasa peacetime army with peacetime priorities. I doubt they were run hard at all.


Personnally, I think that the French army had Panthers because it had nothing better, and was not allowed to produce its own tanks in late 40's. When you look at the uniforms of the French Expeditionary Corps in Indochina, you will see american, british, german, french equipement from WW1 and WW2, and even local or "field" made equipement. We didn't have a standard uniform. (and even now you will find in some French Army units, WW1 and WW2 equipment that are kept in stock, just in case..) That's typically a French problem that we still face today : NOT ENOUGH MONEY !!! and not enough spare parts to repair our vehicles. I have heard that 60% of our planes can't fly because of the lack of spare parts..
So I really think that the French army would not have used Panther tanks in the 50's if they had the choice..

Cheers from France

Pierre-Olivier
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:04 am
Post subject: Re: Distorted Facts

- Neil_Baumgardner
...
While I think the Sherman was a great & venerable tank, I wouldnt argue it grew as much as the T-34, at least during WWII. The Soviets upgraded the T-34 with the 85mm gun during the war, while it took the French and Israelis to upgrade the Sherman with similar weapons post-war...

Well the US did have 105mm armed Shermans in WWII. The T-34 also had a lot more room for improvement. The T-34 76 didn't have a radio for the most part, lousey ergonomics, too small a turret, etc and the Soviet 76mm gun was inferior to the US 75 as you noticed the Soviet 85 was about the equivalant of the US 76 as far as AP performance goes but I think it's HE performance wasn't as good.


....
Part of the success & adaptability of the T-34 and Sherman is due to the fact that the US & USSR won WWII, leading to several generations of improvements afterwards. If the Germans had won (thank god not!), I have no doubt we would have seen 88mm armed Panthers and quite possibly even eventually 105mm armed Panthers in the postwar years. I'm not so sure (especially taking the French experience) that the Tiger or Tiger II would have had the same longevity...


Neither the US nor the Soviets really improved the M-4 or T-34 after the war. I'm not aware of many upgrades for the T-34 at all. The Sherman tended to be upgraded by third parties (Isreal, France, etc)
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:37 am
Post subject: Re: The Sherman Tank, The Good, The Bad, and The Distorted F

- Al_Bowie

BTW the point I made about numbers does not indicate that the Panther killed 5 shermans for itself being killed. these would have been killed by a variety of threats such as infantry AT, AT and mutually supporting tanks. I notice you completely overlook the fact that the Panthers were fighting in sited defence giving them a three to one theoretical advantage to start with. If you analyse the Normandy / Falaise and cobra period battles where the Germans were forced to counterattack against vehicles in defensive position the ratios are about 3 to one in favourr of the Sherman highlighting the fact that it is the situation more than the vehicle that accts for the discrepency.


The 3-1 defense advantage rule is a rule of hand that dates back to Clausewitz, which can be adjusted to the particulars of any situation and may or may not have any validity. I will grant defense probably does have advantage, but whether its 2-1, 3-1, etc can vary... OTOH, there certainly have been many thinkers & generals, Patton may have been one of them, that believed in offensive advantage.


My comments regarding the longevity if you re read them are WW2 related and NOT post war although the Sherman did continue for a long period post war.


Okay, sure... Like I said, I'm not really denying that the Sherman as a very good versatile tank...


THe French used the Panthers ONLY until the US MAP could provide significant amounts of 76 Shermans and a ltd amount of Pershings.


I'm not so sure that is true, they kept them around far longer than was necessary by that measure - I dont think anyone had a want for Shermans in the early 1950s. Even the French 1947 report on the Panther (see 160-161 of Spielberger's Panther & its Variants) isnt exactly glowing. But my point is they respected it enough to keep it in service. I dont think they needed to for any other reason... The Soviets had the same respect for it, but they had plenty of JS-2s & -3s to go around. I believe the French Panthers were replaced by M47s... But I can see this discussion has becomes a tangent - Panther vs the Sherman rather than the utility of a hi-lo mix of heavier tanks to complement US Shermans...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 3 of 4
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum