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Just a smidgen off topic...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:49 pm
Post subject: Just a smidgen off topic...

Gents,

while searching for something else, I stumbled upon this caption on the US Army's Command and General Staff College webpage:



Intentional? Inter-service rivalry? Will the culprit be detained at the other facility at scenic Fort Leavenworth? Mr. Green

Armor content: That webpage also shows an Ontos and a knocked-out Dominican tank. Cool

Cheers,

Jens O.
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Dontos
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Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

OKAY Okay,....you got my interest!!

Which photos, website, and is it about the erronious assumption that Ontos killed the rebel captured L70 (actually, only 106mm recoilless rifle fire is factual) Rolling Eyes

Inquiring minds want to know..... Mr. Green

Don
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

Jens,
I'm going to take a wild guess that you've downloaded or otherwise found "Power Pack: U. S. Intervention in the Dominican Republic 1965-1966" by Lawrence Yates. An excellent read and downloadable as a fantasic pdf file, and yes, it mentions the role of the ONTOS, Don. Wink

D.

There is a wealth of wonderful info and papers here. Some are quite large. Download and save. Careful about printing as they can be quite big, like "Power Pack"

www-cgsc.army.mil/carl...si/csi.asp
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Doug_Kibbey
Jens,
I'm going to take a wild guess that you've downloaded or otherwise found "Power Pack: U. S. Intervention in the Dominican Republic 1965-1966" by Lawrence Yates. An excellent read and downloadable as a fantasic pdf file, and yes, it mentions the role of the ONTOS, Don. Wink



Guilty as charged,

I was skipping along the text when I came across that "Air Farce" caption and thought I have to share that with you guys. Mr. Green You can either download "Power Pack" as a .pdf or you can read it online.

The things you stumble upon while researching other topics... Wink

Cheers,

Jens O.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

Cool

"Power Pack" is actually, among other things, an excellent early "snapshot" of Vietnamesque equipment and doctrine being experimented with and applied small-scale...not with that conflict in mind, of course, but you can see where it would overlap and get refined later after the escalation. It also is a good study in interservice rivalry and failures of cooperation, things that got "fixed" and refined in the larger conflict. Reading it, I also had flashes of the Panamanian operation a couple of decades later where everyone was trying to get into the act regardless of whether the roles fit or not. Well, I imagined some parallels, anyway.

A good read and I recommend it, definitely not mainstream.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

Yes,

so many lessons there to be learned and heartily ignored- could have saved many many lives... But we shouldn't go down that road.

Definitely the best read on that long-forgotten operation, I wish there was something similar for the first foray into Lebanon and the Bay of Pigs- especially the latter suffers from still classified documents.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Jens_O_Mehner
Yes,

Definitely the best read on that long-forgotten operation, I wish there was something similar for the first foray into Lebanon and the Bay of Pigs- especially the latter suffers from still classified documents.


Well, the best you can do for the Bahia de Cochinos that I've found in public domain are still Johnson, Artime, et. al. "The Bay of Pigs" and "Bay of Pigs" by Peter Wyden...both probably long out of print, but with the internet and eBay...

We're gonna' have to keep an eye on you, pesky German spy Cool ...you're more dangerous than Guderian lookin' into our our Civil war...except you're pokin' around in our Leavenworth Command and General Staff College papers! There may be a knock on your door tonight.... Twisted Evil


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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Doug_Kibbey


Well, the best you can do for the Bahia de Cochinos that I've found in public domain are still Johnson, Artime, et. al. "The Bay of Pigs" and "Bay of Pigs" by Peter Wyden...both probably long out of print, but with the internet and eBay...

We're gonna' have to keep an eye on you, pesky German spy Cool ...you're more dangerous than Guderian lookin' into our our Civil war...except you're pokin' around in our Leavenworth Command and General Staff College papers! There may be a knock on your door tonight.... Twisted Evil




Vait a minnit, vat are you referring too, I haff no idea what choo are talking about Laughing Never mind the knock at the door, I'm on very good terms with black chopper drivers... Cool

Yeah, Johnson and cohorts as well as Wyden are good primers, but lacking. I had a chance to talk to some people involved on both sides and am looking at the matter a bit differently these days- I hope the documents in the archives will be declassified while I'm still alive, but somehow... The Brits already foiled similar hopes once or twice. Evil or Very Mad

So, when you're going to come my way, mein Herr? Although my personal situation has changed tremendously, I'm still up for an armor-related trip- I'll be doing Munster over Pentecost again, after last year's trip failed. Cool

Cheers,

Jens O.


Last edited by Jens_O_Mehner on Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

Mmmm....I hope soon..

My last trip was brief...I was in Berlin for two days (during the high winds) en route to Romania for the second time in January. I'm off to Arnhem and mainly Portugal for about 10 days end of March and then Florence for a few days and Poland in late April. No chance for time off in Germany during those as they are fully booked trips.

Later in the year I might be able to book some "free" time into one of my bid'ness trip. I think there is someting in Tutzing later in the year, and there is always MEDICA in Duesseldorf, though that's November always. I might have something in the U.K. in May though and can get away. I'll try to send you a schedule, of sorts, by PM. Wink
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Dontos
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Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:02 am
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Jens_O_Mehner


..... I wish there was something similar for the first foray into Lebanon and the Bay of Pigs- especially the latter suffers from still classified documents.


Jens

Not really digging into 'Bay of Pigs' but I have been digging into Lebanon 58 and Dom Rep 65. My interest came from email corrispondence with several veterans who participated in the Operations, among other less famous operations during the same period.

I have found some literary stuff (documents, after action reports, news stories, ...) but I have been able to 'find' sources of Photos & some video, which suits my interest or focus.

Regards,
Don
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Doug_Kibbey
I might have something in the U.K. in May though and can get away. I'll try to send you a schedule, of sorts, by PM. Wink


Roger that,

be sure to post somewhat ahead of time, so I can plan accordingly- we'll be in Munster anyways from May 25 to 28 for the modelling show and some looks behind the curtains. Cool

Jens O.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

- Dontos


Jens

Not really digging into 'Bay of Pigs' but I have been digging into Lebanon 58 and Dom Rep 65. My interest came from email corrispondence with several veterans who participated in the Operations, among other less famous operations during the same period.

I have found some literary stuff (documents, after action reports, news stories, ...) but I have been able to 'find' sources of Photos & some video, which suits my interest or focus.

Regards,
Don


Don,

you lucky man, photos and videos, verrry nice, I only have some photos, and those are press or PAO shots. I found a couple of reports and documents, but not near enough to satisfy my curiosity- it was an extremely interesting phase during the Cold War, largely ignored or forgotten by the public as well as scholars, but full of interesting operations.

Cheers,

Jens O.
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Scott_Taylor
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Posts: 76
Location: London, Ontario
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:05 pm
Post subject: Speaking of Bay of Pigs

Hello:

Since Caribbean armour operations in the 1960s have been brought up, I've been trying to track down information on the 5 M41s that the Cuban rebels landed with at Bay of Pigs. I assume they were drawn directly from US Army stocks - where and what unit? The Panama Canal zone?

I'd love to see any photos of these tanks, especially with regards to markings applied. I gather that the M41 at Kubinka is one of the Bay of Pigs veterans. Does anybody know whether the markings on it accurately reflect the markings applied by the Cuban rebels? Even better, are there any photos out there of this tank when it was being evaluated by the Soviets?

Cheers and thanks,

Scott Taylor
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Jens_O_Mehner
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Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Just a smidgen off topic...

Scott,

the M41 in Kubinka has markings from an US unit in Panama, not those of La Brigada 2506. AFAIK all were unmarked, I've seen one with the old Cuban roundel as used under Batista, but I have a hunch that this is not authentic, but rather a repaint.

Cheers,

Jens O.
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